So basically your regular Arms Warrior adds 1840 RDPS in raid that has 8 other physical damage dealers on this fight and the stand in did 1540 excluding whatever he added to the two Ferals. I didn't realize that was actually more damage than what a solitary T6 Fury Warrior could do. In your situation it's more a question of whether or not having a "debuff bot" with two Ferals is better for threat and RDPS than simply having a Protection Warrior instead of a second Feral Druid with a Ret Paladin, Rogue or any other class that would add high RDPS replacing your Arms Warrior. I just don't see where these huge gains in RDPS are coming from in this situation. If it all boils down to threat, then it's somewhat understandable, otherwise not really.

This is a bit steep of a claim. If you assumed even 10 ppl who would make use of the buff, there's no way a kz geared arms is going to outdps (all things considered) a t6+ fury (which according to your wording I assume is somewhat what you were hinting at).
With regards to a 'atypical' raid setup where the fury outdps'es rogues- short of falling into an arcane mage fallacy- I would concur that an aggressively played fury can hang with rogues on many fights.
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The rogue in 2nd is Mutilate, however if you compare my gear and his, he owns me by a landslide. Also to note: Recklessness was used on our 1% wipe, so the value I put out on the kill is 100% sustained dps.

Edit: How many times have warriors been nerfed expressly because they were found to 'outdps rogues during internal testing'? With gear, historically speaking based on this game's mechanics, a fury will go toe to toe with a rogue.

Well gains are :

Druids are easier to heal for us. I dont want to debate which is ultimately better its not the thread for it, but basically we have better results. Thats probably the winner in any case for this fight

Raid dps benefits
2nd feral to boost a group with 5% crit while the prot warrior would be somehow useless and actually require a paladin etc ruining some group synergies we have.

Imp expose. It can really be kept up at minimal cost by a rogue (it so happens we have one mutilate rogue - well at least for the kill, although we arent sure if he shouldnt go back to combat). Anyway disregarding rogue specs etc. Imp expose is basically "another sunder application" buffing raid physical damage by around 4% again. Anyway Since the rogue has all the important finishers up anyway, keeping expose costs him maybe 3k damage every 30 seconds. 100 dps is nothing to frown at, but 4% raid damage is worth it.

Tank has problems keeping everything up, although i guess he could keep Tclap.

2 Druids = 2 innervates/battle reses , we even had some small problems healing hunters from slashes (group composition was at fault) - our feral tanks solved it by tossing them a rejuv as soon as they shifted off bear before going cat.

Cat dps > prot tank dps.


Btw i did 2200 dps on that fight, so 1840 is actually not more then a fury warrior. However if you use 2 feral tanks, then he provides the ability to use curse of recklessness, which is another 960 raid dps.



Also to answer some questions. Its a dire reality, that you dont always have what you want . Someone could say "You should respec arms yourself do the 1200-1400 dps yourself (thats a loss of 800-1000 dps), and replace the standin with someone doing 1900+ dps". True. Except we dont have anyone "spare" doing 1900 dps, so we do fights with what we have.

I'd like to see a WWS of you doing 2,2k without glaives, because I doubt it .
I did almost 1,6k with a 2h and we killed him just in time. The DW warrior in my group did 200 more.

There are an abundance of parses with DW furies pushing 2k and higher... from months ago with dated gear. Without glaives? Check.
It still amazes me Natural was putting up 2k dps in fury gear as prot spec, but that's another topic.

It's much more about consumables and group stacking than Warglaives. Fury warriors tend to scale insanely well with perfect conditions.

Improved faerie fire
Improved expose armor
Curse of Recklessness
Leader of the Pack
Scrolls of Agility and Strength
Elixirs of Demon slaying on demons
Expose weakness
Improved Hunter's mark
Windfury with Grace of Air twisting
Unleashed rage
Boss with low armor values
Steady damage intake

In such conditions, you can basically not worry about rage and this is where we catch up to rogues. Threat does become an issue however. Based on the latest spreadsheets, theoretical max dps with current possible gear is roughly 3400 dps. This means that you need to find a tank to hold roughly 1700 TPS. I haven't looked up recent TPS spreadsheets, but I remember tanks not being very scalable TPS wise while maintaining the scaling survivability required.

Well check on everything except improved faerie fire. I guess hes not so low armor although if you use expose /curse of recklessness his armor isnt that amazing (7765-3075-800-610 = 3280. with 1350 or so ArP/Executioner it gets manageable). Id add rotation on drums too, giving around 70 haste rating over the fight. Expose weakness is something a lot of raids neglect. Our hunter with scrolls of agi was pushing 1260 agility, so thats a nice 315 AP boost.

Improved faerie fire +
Improved expose armor -
Curse of Recklessness -
Leader of the Pack +
Scrolls of Agility and Strength +/-
Elixirs of Demon slaying on demons +
Expose weakness -
Improved Hunter's mark -
Windfury with Grace of Air twisting -
Unleashed rage +
Boss with low armor values
Steady damage intake

I checked the buffs I normally would be able to use on a given Illidan fight. My raid is very conservative in class setups and had bad luck with enhancer shamans. Normally it's a fury-warrior (me or the other fury) and 3 rogue + heal shaman. Nobody does use drums, we have no retpala and hunters are bm.

Actually it's said but I can't even say how much dmg I would be able to push, because we run mediocre melee group setups. We use a lot of casters (4-5 mages) and warlocks with 1 shadow priest.

landsoul sheet's puts me at ~1550 DPS with my usual raidbuffs (no enhanced totems or other goodies) but I have yet to see come close to that. I had 1600 dps at Teron once, but it was in early february and I have gotten 3 upgrades since then. It's sad but I feel gimped by our rogue's and our conservative raid setups (no ret, no enhancer, survival hunter or 2h warrior - well I could do it but I lack the right gear, although I got Cataclysm's Edge).

We haven't beaten Kal yet, but we only had 3 trys until this weekend (farming BT is a prioity). Brutallus might be an interesting min/max fight, that could alter some play-styles in my raid.

I can't force your raid to take an enh shaman, obviously, but I can be sad that they don't.
I'm curious, though, how you "lack the right gear," but you have fury gear + CE? Surely, you can take your hit rating down towards 9%?

If so we can expect BF or arms to get nerfed to hell in expansion I guess. Or the devs see something about warriors that people have missed. That doesnt seem right at all. Thats why they tried to change talents around before, just now you are required to have 32 in arms.

Though I would have to agree that if you have a good weapon, its hard not to have arms gear if you have fury gear unless you gemmed for hit or something.

This would make it simpler to cut back on hit actually, and invest in crit/ap.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft



Slam/BT/Slam/MS/etc...

What, you want Demo Shout? pbbt

Something tells me every class will have their talent trees reworked. Somehow I get the feeling having MS+BT was never intended, or they will share the same cd or something.

Not necessarily. I would probably bring a kara geared shadowpriest if i didnt had 2 well geared ones just to provide misery and shadoweaving for my 3 2.1k dps locks (15% x 6k = 900 rdps), misery for mages (well we are melee heavy and not many mages but for a balanced guild that would be easily another 300 rdps), and mana for group (harder to calculate but over 360 seconds a 900 dps spriest would bring 16.200 mana to each of 3 locks, or save them like 24 lifetaps overall = 15 or so shadowbolts or easily 250 extra rdps). In other words for a balanced raid a karazhan geared spriest would bring 1450+ rdps + some shaman healer mana on top of his own 900-1100. Sounds familiar? There are more examples of classes that one of is really powerful.

I also had 2 bloodlusts on Brutallus so the % wasnt that much different, and i had 3 drums group. I can reach 2200 on teron often, and that includes no scrolls of agi/str, normal flask not elixir of demonslaying (145 less ap), no drums, and sunders not imp expose (toning down armor difference to 1000).

As for your build: WW and MS are about as good already, so it wouldnt be that much different. Remember most likely we get new 50 pointers earlier then extra 10 talents.

I'm guessing he was thinking more along the lines of being able to use both of them, not just chosing one for any given situation. BT > MS > WW. Pretty sure Blizzard would never allow that unless all of the other classes had something similarly strong or stronger.

I thought when there was a talent bug that gave an extra point people found BT and MS shared a cooldown. I dont know where to find that though so it could just be rumor. Though I think it would be a good idea to give fury a top talent in expansion that scales like another instant or rampage work by %.

The problem I see with debuffs like BF or what shadow priests do is that forces raid composition, which is bad for guilds or servers with limited players. If I lose a mage I can put a warlock or hunter without significant difference. Things like enhancement shaman who affect a group seem easier to balance than something that applies to a whole raid.

Consider this:
A fury of equal gear to a combat rogue will go toe to toe.
To build CPs, the combat is spamming SS, which crits for 2.5k on avg for a raiding rogue. (Zygge from SK on their Brut downing). This happens every 4 seconds not counting CP procs.
Similarly, BT crits for 4k on a raiding fury. This happens every 6 seconds.
This is just meat- the potatoes being rupture and WW respectively but I'm trying to keep it simple.
If you add MS, as it will crit for ~same as BT... This happens every 6 seconds.
Without a shared cooldown you're looking at a raw 16% dmg boost given current talents, current mechanics.
As far as rage requirement... I think we can all agree in a raid scenario there is never any famine of rage inflow. Quite the opposite.

This recent topic however, is 100% speculation on WotLK. We're prolly a couple month ahead of ourselves on this one.

Id say the potatoes are the effects on white damage. Rogues getting 35% SnD (t6 bonus) warriors getting 25% flurry with 90% uptime - 22.5% speed. Rogues getting weapon specs and expertise , warriors negating misses and glances with heroic etc.

But beside that, you say that it increases the damage by 16%. Fine. Id say less - MS with 1h doesnt crit as hard as BT, not even close. You also lose 2 heroics which for me add around 500x2 damage (counting glancing/miss removal) for that rage. So the damage por 6 sec is MS crit (my weapon damage counting BF etc might be around 1100 - so MS hits are like 1410 crits for 3k tops) for 3k-1k of lost heroics. 2k dmg/6 sec = 333 dps . Is it big increase? Sure. But its not overboard by any means. I mean drop the 10 points from fury to go to "prebc" build of 17/34. You lose imp WW/3% hit/10%ap/rampage. I think that would add up to MORR then 333dps. Thats just the power of 10 talent points. Its not different that upgrade from 60->70.

I guess it wouldn't be a problem to keep up a BT-MS-WW rotation, if they ever implement that. MS still generates rage and counts as special attack as BT. That means getting a HS in from time to time it should still be enough rage. But interesting would be slow vs. fast weapon again maybe. Slow weapons meaning higher MS/HS dmg, while fast main would mean lower MS/HS-dmg but more HS.

I still wouldn't be that bad, but my +hit is more than 9% as I passed on all T6 tokens till now. The only T6 token viable is the shoulder but that has't dropped even with 3 token-drops for quite a while.

@ Shha:
I really didn't put all too much into it, due to it being largely irrelevant at this point in time.
BT is worth about 16% of my dps. Going a 2H fury build, MS is going to match that same number, as BT and MS really are comparable. Even with a DW fury build, MS will still be critting for roughly the same value as a current rogue's SS. As far as heroics etc: I think we can both agree another instant > 2 heroics. And rage in a raid setting is never an issue. You then have between 2 and 3 instants in a 6sec window...
Granted we could then argue the value of Slam in such a setting etc, but like I said, it's pretty much pure speculation about talent [changes] to come.

Edit: Disregard.

Gday im new to fury guild is working on closing out the T4 instances got most of my gear from ah or drops no one needed while i was tanking.. that being said i think i have OK fury gear and am now making the switch to full time fury and im looking for some tips. i realize that my gems are off on gear that i plan on replacing over the course of the next 2 weeks(T4 gloves and shoulders nin'jas badge boots or vindicators then upgrade to badge pants and pvp gems)oo and i just bought the[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] but im trying to decide if its worth keeping eng just for goggles and repair bot. im also a forum noob TYVM

Read the DPS warrior compendium thread. I'm not sure exactly what you need help with. Keep engineering in my opinion, the goggles are superb.

Also, check your grammar and sentence building, you will likely get reported if you don't edit your post.