Duel weilding DragonStrikes?! that's got to be an Error. Or something done on the PTR.

According to Patch 2.4.2 Undocumented Changes (2.4.2 undocumented changes):

"[Nightfall] now has a chance to fail for targets above level 60"

That's a horrible waste of DPS.
Give the axe to your prot warrior tank and tell him to use it when the other tank (usually a druid) is tanking.
Or maybe not, as Nightfall will be nerfed in the next patch anyway...

It seems like the fury warrior's DPS would have to be crazy far ahead of the arms warrior for this to achieve higher raid dps. If both my guild's fury warrior and I are in the same raid (I'm 2h w/BF) then I get the melee group as I see a bigger benefit from the shammy. Is there another reason why you guys set up that way?

I could be mistaken, but id still go with fury warrior in the enh shammie group I think. You will provide the debuff anyway, and eventho you get more from a shammie, you also have lower damage output then the fury warrior. Doesnt that mean that the higher dps output from the fury warrior would get more damage eventho the 2h warrior will get more out of it, but it increases an already lower dps?

Math behind this?
A 2H makes marginally better use of WF Totem (present as well I'd imagine in the tank group). Fury makes better use of Unleashed Rage (directly affects BT value, scaling bonus with Imp Zerk Stance) as well as Lust (higher % of personal dps is white damage/HStrike damage).

...The arms warrior gets windfury too, it's not worth bringing him without it. It's just resto shaman vs enhance.

(not sure if this is the right place to post this)

I remember reading a while back a few posts on fury/prot hybrid builds when blizzard announced the changes to defiance. There was a bit of discussion on it and it was decided that 17/44 was still much better.

However I don't think that this:Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft spec was really tested.

While I know hard numbers are preferred I don't have the time at the moment to test it out. I recently specced 17/44 but was specced as 31/30 (the spec above) for quite some time in kara. If I remember correctly though the dps wasn't that different between the two specs (max round 30-50dps). While I admit I had a few teething problems with rampage the majority of the time I managed to keep it up.

The major difference I can see between the two specs is the loss of precision, which could somewhat be covered by the -1.5% chance for mobs do dodge with from defiance expertise, and the 250ap from rampage. Apart from that it would seem to be a showdown between Imp Zerker Stance and 1h Spec. I remember reading that at a certain point an increase in ap provides a larger dps benefit than weapon dps but can't quite remember the number. However am I correct in assuming 1h spec is a flat 10% dps increase?

I have plugged the numbers in to the war spreadsheets and found that 17/44 had a significant (80-100, can't remember the exact numbers) dps difference at my gear level however I was never able to even graze this number in kara. As a side note I have specced slam and managed to hit about 30dps off of the spreadsheets target so the difference can't be attributed too much to skill.

once again. apologies on the lack of numbers

The big issue for the arms warrior is having sufficient rage to keep up a full slam rotation. Being in a group with an enh shammy helps a LOT there and it's not just the windfury.

As such, it's not so much how much the fury warrior gains vs. how much the arms warrior gains, but more about whether the arms warrior is sitting there, unable to execute his slam cycle correctly and outputs meaningless dps.

Again though, gear makes a difference, as does putting the arms warrior in the tank group (if one of the tanks is a feral).

In my experience, imp LotP is usually enough to boost the arms warrior to perform adequately.

Quite simply, from a dps standpoint, the valuable talent points at your disposal are largely wasted on talents that do absolutely 0 to increase your dps. While this might have some merit for an OT who tags along for tank duty, there is no value here for pure dps. I see what the ultimate goal to accomplish is with weapon damage, but there are just far too many points just plain wasted.

With regards to [DW] fury vs. arms for the bonus of an enh sham. I don't think it's a bad thing to uncover some misconceptions, and obviously everything needs to be put into perspective inside of each guild. One generalization never always applies.

Yeah, this is correct. Stacking Shamans is paving the road to success.

Which warrior gets which group should be entirely based on the flat dps increase that each sees from the "melee" group. If the arms warrior does 1200 dps, and gains 500 from being in the melee group but the fury warrior does 900 dps and gains 700 from being in that group, the fury warrior should go to that group instead. The raid gains more dps this way.

Regardless of whether the arms warrior can slam or not outside the group, if he can keep up the debuff he's doing his job. As long as the fury warrior gains more dps from that group he should be there. Even if the fury warrior does less dps than the arms, but gains a larger flat value, he should be in the group.

500 dps gained is less than 700 dps gained, no matter how much more dps the arms warrior does than the fury.

Obviously these are just random numbers to prove a point, in reality if the arms warrior actually gains more flat dps than the fury warrior then he should be in the group.

Well let's say WF procs 5 times per minute. 5 hits from Cataclysm's Edge > 5 one-hander hits.

I'll put up some WWS when the pages aren't taking an hour to load, but for now all I can say is my dps on Archimonde is about 800-850 w/o WF and 1100 with it. Without WF I also get some lulls where I am rage-starved, which messes with my dps cycle and ability to keep up Blood Frenzy.

Windfury is a %chance to proc, with no cooldown. Therefore you'll get exactly the same %damage increase from the 2h and the 1h. The issues come in when you consider whether the offhand can proc windfury (not sure about this one however.) The big thing that favours 2h arms builds over dual wield fury for windfury is rage generation though. A non-windfury arms warrior will often be struggling to keep up their rotation, whereas a fury warrior does not have this issue. That is why it is generally accepted that a 2h warrior will gain more benefit out of WF.

No offense but if your doing 1100 dps on archimonde as melee I'm not really sure why you would be brought at all, BF or not unless you brought about 15 melee dps..., is your wws/recount etc not counting your damage correctly?

1. Posting WWS reports do nothing to argue your general case on 'which warrior is more deserving of the enhance sham' (the original discussion). They will show your personal gains, but nothing more.
2. You are arguing for WF totem, which has been stated previously would also be present in the tank group (usually).
3. LotP will yield better RDPS gains than unleashed rage due to higher BF uptime (I assume the vast majority of guilds run [2x rogue 1x warr 1x enh sham 1x WF using melee] in their melee group) which will probably be present in the tank group or the hunter group (for many guilds, these 2 are one and the same).

There are plenty of other factors, obviously, and any guild or raid leader who doesn't form strategies and group/raid composition based on his/her guild's makeup and players' abilities is a moron. Ie. the arms warrior has a Sapphire and the fury doesn't, the arms warrior puts out the dps he should but the fury has no clue what he's doing, etc.
Your stereotypical (let's not get too attached to playing devil's advocate) fury warrior will gain more from the Enh Sham's bag o' tricks than the arms. The arms is there primarily for BF while putting out 90% of what the fury is contributing- and should not be forgotten with group makeups and to be given WF and LotP if available.
Voxx pretty much summed it up.

Between intercepting airburst and zerker raging fears I never thought of Archimonde as any harder than any other t6 fight in terms of dps time, the only time you really lose out on is when a doomfire gets kited into melee on the rare occasion.

(Dps as in damage divided by the seconds the fight lasts specifically)

When did you last do archimonde? You can no longer intercept the air burst and the fires are completely random. It used to be great for melee, now its pretty horrible.

Not entirely true
http://elitistjerks.com/724120-post1369.html

Edit: spelling.

Yeah I heard the stories about worse doomfires/airburst intercept problems since 2.4, but I hadn't even noticed really.

If you max hit-box range Archimonde you should be able to intercept back to him like before.

You can still intercept the air burst, but the fires do seem terribly random now more than before. I thought it was just due to where people were running, but we've had many fires instantly curving a path through all of the melee more on our last kills since the patch than previously. Then again, maybe Onyxia is doing more deep breaths as well.