No offense but if your doing 1100 dps on archimonde as melee I'm not really sure why you would be brought at all, BF or not unless you brought about 15 physical dps..., is your wws/recount etc not counting your damage correctly?
What bearing on the current subject does my own DPS have? Since you asked, my current dps set is considerably better than the last time I was in on Archimonde, not to mention plenty of other reasons why my numbers on that fight could've been better. WWS of you doing 1800dps on archimonde?
1. Posting WWS reports do nothing to argue your general case on 'which warrior is more deserving of the enhance sham' (the original discussion). They will show your personal gains, but nothing more.
2. You are arguing for WF totem, which has been stated previously would also be present in the tank group (usually).
3. LotP will yield better RDPS gains than unleashed rage due to higher BF uptime (I assume the vast majority of guilds run [2x rogue 1x warr 1x enh sham 1x WF using melee] in their melee group) which will probably be present in the tank group or the hunter group (for many guilds, these 2 are one and the same).
There are plenty of other factors, obviously, and any guild or raid leader who doesn't form strategies and group/raid composition based on his/her guild's makeup and players' abilities is a moron. Ie. the arms warrior has a Sapphire and the fury doesn't, the arms warrior puts out the dps he should but the fury has no clue what he's doing, etc.
Your stereotypical (let's not get too attached to playing devil's advocate) fury warrior will gain more from the Enh Sham's bag o' tricks than the arms. The arms is there primarily for BF while putting out 90% of what the fury is contributing- and should not be forgotten with group makeups and to be given WF and LotP if available.
Voxx pretty much summed it up.
The WWS is for the sake of not just spouting numbers.
As for the WF totem, I'm only concerned with our melee group which is usually 2x Rogue, 1 Warr, 1 Enhance Shammy, and a Ret Pally.
I'll just get back to the point of my original statement. If you're bringing a BF warrior, he's going to need the WF or else he may as well just go spec fury.
I'll just get back to the point of my original statement. If you're bringing a BF warrior, he's going to need the WF or else he may as well just go spec fury.
Care to elaborate?
First off, there have been warriors on this forum that have output nearly identical numbers in terms of dps without using a single slam to those that do use slam. I'm assuming your comment about windfury and the BF warrior is in regards to the fact that the BF warrior wouldn't be able to keep up his slam rotation without windfury.
I was under the impression that the entire reason of bringing a BF warrior is that he can do decent dps, and keep the debuff up close to 100% of the time. If you're really struggling with keeping the debuff up just by keeping the crits flowing, then you can actually go to battle stance for a second there, hit rend, and then go back to zerker. It's not the end of the world.
The most blatantly odd thing about that statement is that the BF warrior's dps comes from his dps... as well as the dps he contributes from the BF debuff. The fury warrior on the other hand brings nothing to the table other than his own dps (disregarding debuffs, as both specs can do that).
It would seem to me, that if one of the two specs were to lose out on windfury, it should be the BF warrior. The fury warrior loses a percent of his entire dps contribution, while the BF warrior loses a percent, of a portion of his dps contribution. The other physical dps that are benefiting from the BF debuff will see no reduction in dps if the BF warrior doesn't have windfury unless for some reason your BF uptime magically drops by a phenomenal amount just by losing windfury.
As far as I understand and know, WF is a higher percentage increase for an Arms warrior than for a Fury one. Fine. But in the end the percentage increase is not the important one. What is important is that the warrior who has the higher absolute increase in DPS should get WF. Example (with imaginary numbers just to make my point clear):
Arms: 1600 DPS, Fury: 2000 DPS
Arms gains 12% more DPS, which means 1600*1.12=1792
Fury gains 10% more DPS, which means 2000*1.1=2200
The RDPS gain for giving WF to Arms: 1792-1600 = 192
The RDPS gain for giving WF to Fury: 2200-2000=200
As you can see, in this case, giving the WF totem to the Fury warrior would be more beneficial. But this case is close and of course in your specific raid the numbers are prbably different. I also don't know exactly how much of a percentage increase WF would theoretically be for Arms and Fury warriors. As I said, I made up numbers.
So, has anyone confirmed that you can dual wield Dragonstrike next patch and stack the haste proc yet? I'm very interested to see if this is true, because I'll just craft myself another Dragonstrike if the haste procs stack.
I would try it out myself, but I can't get on the PTR at all, unfortunately.
As far as I understand and know, WF is a higher percentage increase for an Arms warrior than for a Fury one. Fine. But in the end the percentage increase is not the important one. What is important is that the warrior who has the higher absolute increase in DPS should get WF. Example (with imaginary numbers just to make my point clear):
Arms: 1600 DPS, Fury: 2000 DPS
Arms gains 12% more DPS, which means 1600*1.12=1792
Fury gains 10% more DPS, which means 2000*1.1=2200
The RDPS gain for giving WF to Arms: 1792-1600 = 192
The RDPS gain for giving WF to Fury: 2200-2000=200
As you can see, in this case, giving the WF totem to the Fury warrior would be more beneficial. But this case is close and of course in your specific raid the numbers are prbably different. I also don't know exactly how much of a percentage increase WF would theoretically be for Arms and Fury warriors. As I said, I made up numbers.
But then again those numbers are as you say, 'imaginary'.
A warrior wielding a 2handed weapon WILL benefit more from windfury than a DW-fury will.
I doubt I would push 1600dps on brut as arms without windfury, and with it 1800dps isn't really that hard.
But then again, why would you ever bring two dpswarriors unless both of them can get a proper meleegroup?
What bearing on the current subject does my own DPS have? Since you asked, my current dps set is considerably better than the last time I was in on Archimonde, not to mention plenty of other reasons why my numbers on that fight could've been better. WWS of you doing 1800dps on archimonde?
It was more of a suggestion to double check your log/mods etc to make sure they are recording correctly /shrug but you can get all angry and such if you'd like.
So, has anyone confirmed that you can dual wield Dragonstrike next patch and stack the haste proc yet? I'm very interested to see if this is true, because I'll just craft myself another Dragonstrike if the haste procs stack.
I would try it out myself, but I can't get on the PTR at all, unfortunately.
Yes the procs stack indeed. Here is WWS from quick test.
I've been reading these forums for a while now, just decided to register.
My guild uses two DPS warriors. I'm fury, the other 2H BF. I usually get put in the melee group(enh shaman, ret paladin, 2 rogues, myself) and he gets put in the hunters group (resto shaman, feral druid, 2 hunters, BF warrior). The resto shaman only drops GoA but the crit from GoA and LotP seem to be enough to keep BF up.
Is he really bad or something? You could switch him with one of the rogues. Unless their levels are very different that should be better. Otherwise you could just...bring someone else.
Like Touf said, you should consider swapping him with one of the rogues.
I'm not quite sure which class would benefit more from unleashed rage, but your 2h warrior will benefit more from the windfury than the rogue, who would probably benefit more from the grace of air totem than your warrior.
The logic behind windfury being better for a 2h warrior is because its a single weapon enchant and the 2h naturally has more damage.
I play a 2h BF warrior myself, and I can guarantee you on fights like Brutallus, windfury is a lifesaver in terms of rage generation.
Wind fury accounts for ~6.5% of my total dps on a fight like brutallus.
However, I lose another ~5% from losing unleashed rage and improved totems.
Being in a non optimised leatherworking group would not be fun either.
However, I would suspect that most fury warriors would find it difficult to justify their raid spot without being in the melee dps group. Blood frenzy may be enough to justify a spot in another group but it would depend greatly on the raid setup.
I suppose it doesn't matter much as long as the bosses are being downed.
On a side note WWS of Archimonde over 1900dps. Melee got 4 air bursts, dodged one and intercepted the other three.
Is a 2H going to make more use of WF than a DW'er? The more I think about it the less I am convinced.
There are a plethora, yes, of 2h warriors that play w/o using Slam, but I can assume with reason that well beyond the majority have adopted the White~>Slam~>Instant rotation. As such, haste has limited benefits. There is no disputing this.
Flurry: A DW'ing warrior will have on avg 85%-90% of all white attacks hastened by 25%. A 2h MS/BF debuffer will have about the same uptime but with a cap of 15%. Why is this important? WF, obviously, will proc more often for a DW'er than a 2h. There is nothing to be done about this, as the 2h is talent capped by taking BF.
'But a 2h hits harder'. Sure, but let's now bleed this into attack power. If I have 3000 att pwr raid buffed, that is going to be directly applied to my 2h, or directly applied to my MH/OH. If I have 4000 att pwr, the same holds true. Thus, the difference between a 2H and a 1H MH is going to remain constant, but the ratio will dwindle the more gear is involved. As gear is factored in, the DW will 'gain ground' on the 2h in terms of WF usage.
That is for WF, but all shams can give a warrior that crack. As for the added benefits from an Enh Sham:
On the topic of attack power... unleashed rage, without question, is better used with a fury than an arms. It directly stacks with Imp Zerk Stance, and directly influences BT. MS is normalized, whereas Slam is not. There are tradeoffs with a DW performing more HStrikes, but in the end, I'd find it hard for anyone to dispute the fact that UR and IBS multiply each other's benefit, and in turn, directly influence the main rage burnoff for the respective tree (BT) whereas a 2h gains 10% more ap, and the gain is normalized.
Lust? Drums? No question: DW fury. On avg 60-65% of a DW is white dmg or HStrike dmg, compared to an avg of about 50% of an MS/BF. For Slam users: haste is not uniformly beneficial.
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A fury warrior justifies their raid slot by
1. providing BShout to a group
2. personal output.
An arms warrior justifies their raid slot pretty much simply by
1. applying BF and that's it.
Personal output with as little as 6 other physical dps classes allows the arms warrior to slack to 80% of whatever the fury is capable of doing to have the same total RDPS.
I've seen some 2h PvE warriors put out crazy dps, and there are WWS reports of 2h warriors breaking 2.5k dps on Teron, but I've also seen fury break 3k on these same reports.
All things being equal: be it gear, playstyle, grouping, etc. a Fury will make more use of an Enh Sham than an Arms, not only because of the stacking mechanics, but because he has to. Because if he doesn't, he's deadweight and shouldn't be in the raid. The arms needs a melee group to justify his raid slot by merely slapping up BF (simplified). Anything on top of this is just icing on the proverbial cake that is RDPS.
I don't want to interrupt this discussion, but what about Solarian's Sapphire in Sunwell? Still the best trinket for progress-raids or is e.g. Shard of Contempt better, because it scales with better gear.
Depends. SS is better if you have 5 "high dps" melee in your group. I usually have our feral tank and it provides more dps to use shard. Then on other hand - solarian gives them more threat. Its hard to decide. But in raw dps numbers it seems that
3 pure dpsers (including you) - Shard
4 - either, depends on circumstances
5 -SS
Greetings, I have spent a while reading all these different forums on how to optimise my warriors DPS, 90% of the time i am MT for the guild, but i enjoy 5v5 arena with a few of my guild mates, how ever saddly, I do not get to go DPS very often, but when i do get a break, i like to make the best of it, before i read a few of these warrior posts i was totaly clueless for the most part tbh.
I am currently wearing mostly arena gear, with a few pve items (I find it hard to find arms gear without haste and hit) where as currently my hit is capped, and world breaker, so i reckon my damage output should be quite high, the rotation i am currently using is, Auto,MS,Auto (Thats to start off my dps cycle) then following on from auto, Slam, WW, Auto, Slam, MS, Auto, Slam, etc etc. But i find even with this rotation (Timed correctly) and half decent pve/pvp arms gear, i do not seem to breach over 800dps (When not using windfury) I am not sure if this is natural for arms warriors to do less dps, but more damage, or if simply i should just throw my 2h away and go fury, all tips would be welcome, looking to breach 1k-1.2k dps next time without wf, thanks
Hmm, I really doubt you'll breach 1k dps even as DW fury unless you have optimum buffs. Without WF, unleashed rage, LoTP I think 900-1k is quite normal for a SSC/TK geared DW warrior. As arms hybrid you'll do less personal dps than that, not breaching 800 seems more or less normal to me.
I'm tempted to make a second one, but it just doesnt seem worth the overall cost unless you absolutely can't get another 1her D=
Though I guess a simultaneous proc would be like having Warglaives, just with maces
Honestly, it all boils down to what the proc percentage is.
You can do some quick math and figure out what the "average" haste value of the weapon is based on that and see if it is worth it compared to what you are currently using.
Just do something like your flurry uptime % *.25 for your built in haste, then the mainhand dstrike haste (like 24% i forgot), and whatever other things you have. Then figure out how many swings per minute you get, dont forget to add in like 6 more from whirlwind. Then multiply it by the % chance of the weapon proc thats the total uptime, then just multiply it by the haste rating and you have the average haste per minute.
I am currently having a difficult time with my DPS and am consistently sitting around 1500dps on Brut despite the fact that I think I can/should be higher - and this is unfortunately the trend I’m experiencing on all our bosses at the moment.
I was hoping I could get some assistance as to what I am doing incorrectly. I’ve done a lot of reading but I am obviously missing something.
My current Hit rotation consists of BT and WW on every CD with HS over 50rage.
I usually am in a group with two other rogues, a hunter and an enhancement Shaman - no feral druid.
On fights like Brut I’m chugging Haste pots on CD, and have 2-3 drums of battle in my group.
The weapons Im currently using are Dragonstrike (executioner) and Mountaing Vengance (mongoose) however I also have Risingtide (executioner) as well for another option.
I’m sitting around 210 hit rating with Leggings of Endless Rage, and around 180 with Leggings of Devine Retribution and approx 33-34% crit.
So based on that is there anything you see wrong, perhaps with my gear choices?
The other thing I noticed from looking at other guilds WWS's is that despite me having more +hit rating, I do seem to be missing more and a lot of it is on my yellow attacks like execute and BT. When compared to say some warriors that have much less hit (say in the range of 5% less), yet they aren’t missing so much according to WWS's I’ve looked at. I do find this quite puzzling.
The only other piece of info I can think of is that I’m in Australia and constantly raid with latency of around 200-300. Could this play any factor?
Any advice would be most appreciated, thank you.
(side point, Dreadmaul the new Oceanic server is not on the realm selection list, hence why it is not listed in my profile)
The other thing I noticed from looking at other guilds WWS's is that despite me having more +hit rating, I do seem to be missing more and a lot of it is on my yellow attacks like execute and BT. When compared to say some warriors that have much less hit (say in the range of 5% less), yet they aren’t missing so much according to WWS's I’ve looked at. I do find this quite puzzling.
Your main problem is not in your gearing choices, but your placement. WWS-reports parse dodges and parries as misses. You are getting specials reported as misses while over 9% hit, so you are not correctly placed behind the boss and are getting parried. Getting specials parried will eat a great deal of your dps, and getting whites parried eats rage which in turn eats even more cycle dps.
Edit: Click on the expand all rows-button on your Dmg Out-tab on the WWS report and you'll see proof of this with actual parry percentages.
Not only will getting parried that much hurt your personal DPS, but leads to your tank taking alot of excess damage. On Brut, that can be a major issue!
Gearing choices look decent, only thing I would point out is ArP, either stack it, or dont, It's only super valuable in large quanitites and has exponential returns the higher you stack it. That being said, brut has pertty high AC, might wanna use straigh AP/CRIT gear for him.
Hmm, I really doubt you'll breach 1k dps even as DW fury unless you have optimum buffs. Without WF, unleashed rage, LoTP I think 900-1k is quite normal for a SSC/TK geared DW warrior. As arms hybrid you'll do less personal dps than that, not breaching 800 seems more or less normal to me.
04/26/08, 7:38 PM
