Talgog

Shaman got close to 4 PPM with auto-attack, Flurry and Windfury. As far as anyone can tell, the weapons do not have an internal cooldown, let alone share one. The procs will stack and they trigger as independent weapons on contact. A warrior using instants with a shaman assist could probably get close to a permanent 212 haste, with a chance to proc Warglaive haste.

On a back of a napkin calculation, 212 haste drops Dragonstrikes to 2.38 speed and turns them into 110.7 DPS weapons for the duration of said haste. If nearly 100% uptime is achievable, and it looks like it is at least in a melee raid DPS situation, well, there you go. Even with 2/3's uptime for a solo warrior makes them 106.3 DPS weapons.

At the very least, they are comporable to S3/Parrot Fists, ignoring everything else including the 424 haste double proc Warglaive imitator.

I would be extremely cautious about assembling mats or dropping professions on a live server unlesss the costs are just arbitrary to you. This reeks of unintended, with the strength of the weapon choice coming almost entirely from the proc mechanics of something that was never designed to be used in a matching set.

 

Bluefang

Ok, brutalis wasnt a good example cause we are always moving from side to side restricted by other players etc. But just talking about straight misses i usually use Leggings of endless rage for the +hit and was in the teron fight Wow Web Stats
I have been a fury warrior since pretty much week one of WoW so i am pretty good at staying behind a mob, that been said Teron doesnt move and is perfect for straight up dps.

Witzbold - WWS has 20 more +hit then i do with LoER and yet only misses 8%, where i am missing 17% and this is common in all my other WWS reports, any ideas or should i just pray i had some bug and moving server fixed it?

 

milanista11

From what i see from both WWS you link above other than misses i think the number of Bloodthirst crit between you 2 is quite differ.

Witzbold crit 12 out 14 BT which also a difference, where you got 8 bloodthirst crit out of 16, other than than his heroic strike also hit much harder, with warglaives.

Consider your previous post about latency, i also play from oceanic area with averagin 500 is ms, i dont think it make huge different. Also if you watch the Fury warr dps video (epsilon 2k dps in Brutallus) it shows around 400ish ms and he still doing huge amount of DPS.

 

Apate

edit: nevermind, I misread "500 is ms," which is 500ms, I suppose :P

See you, auntie.

 

Bluefang

Yeah, i know he would beat me by abit just cause Warglaives are a massive dps upgrade by themselves, but he shouldnt be beating me by quite that much, i am just using him cause he was the first fury warrior i found on WWS. I was using that WWS as a example to show how much i miss compared to the avg warrior on WWS, Brut wasnt a good example cause of parrys so i used Teron where there is no movement and almost impossible to place your self in the wrong spot to do dmg.

 

Gruntle

You have 13% misses on your white hits. The miss chance vs bosses is 28%, so your 210 hit rating (13.3%) + 3% from Precision (but I'm not sure you have that) is quite consistent with a 13% observed miss chance (within scatter). If you feel dodges are hurting you could always try to get more Expertise (Shard of Contempt if you don't already have it, and Weapon mastery talent but that is a must). I really doubt miss streaks is the root of your problems, but one option would be to get a fast offhand to get smoother rage generation (but really, Mounting Vengeance should beat the crap out of anything bar Warglaive OH).

There are many problems with comparing output dps like you did with Witzbold, he has 8% misses on his white swings, I'm pretty sure he must be using gear with a lot more hit than you (or , he was just very lucky in that fight). Also the gain in having Warglaives should not be underestimated, haste is an extremely valuable stat at that gear levels since you're basically hasting your heroic strikes.

 

Euber

Hey Bluefang, I think that you are getting extra swings with your offhand and that is why you have the misses that you do. You have a MH 2.7 speed and an OH 2.6 speed. More OH swings = more misses.

I don't think it is your hit, but rather the faster OH.

--Euber

Edit: With both Warglaives he will get 2 MH to 1 OH, the beauty of the 2.8 speed and the 1.4 speeds of the weapons. Can you link his armory?

 

Gruntle

What? Not sure I understand what you are saying here. You're implying that he has a higher miss rate because his OH is faster? That is wrong in so many ways, I think you should perhaps check up on some basics of hits and misses. The extra miss chance from DW (19%) applies to both weapons.

 

Euber

Oh, yes, the miss rate does apply to both hands, but the Heroic Strikes don't. I think I didn't explain fully. Combined with a lot of Heroic Strike, which is a main hand only attack, I think you get the miss rate difference that he describes.

I wanted to see the Armory of the other guy to really compare the hit values, so that could be eliminated as the real reason.

--Euber

Edit: I was looking at the log, so that I could try to explain my point more fully. If you look at the log a remarkable number of misses directly follow a HS.

 

Apate

This isn't too surprising if you HS a decent amount. With capped special, a moderate miss rate, and moderate-to-heavy HS usage, it seems quite likely for HS->miss to occur.

See you, auntie.

 

Euber

Oh, yes.

I am just trying to help Bluefang solve the problem of his very strange miss rate. If he is right that his miss rate is out of whack and he wasn't losing hit, I was trying to suggest a reason. I do realize that I am suggesting something a little crazy, that HS coupled with a .1 faster OH can lead to unexpected regular hit misses with the OH.

Personally, I think he is swapping his Drape out for the Shadow Resist cloak or something to explain the hit loss. He *did* say that this happens in his WWS all the time. This is the first intriguing miss-rate oddity that I have seen in forever, but I admit that I think we are simply missing information.

Really, Bluefang is in a position to use two 2.6 weapons and end my grasping at straws.

--Euber

 

Bluefang

To answer the question about the slower OH "maybe" producing more misses its not the case. I used to MH Rising Tide which is a 2.6 speed weapon so both weapons were at the same speed, I only recently made the T3 hammer due to it been suggested it might help with my overall dps.

So for the last month or so i have been running with 2 weapons the exact same speed and i have still had a higher miss rate then comparable warriors that i have found on WWS. Tho i haven't had a problem with my misses since i moved server, but then i haven't been in any easily comparable fights like teron/Brut since my guild moved over.

 

Gruntle

There is nothing strange about Bluefang's miss rate on white attacks. It's perfectly normal.

And for that matter, it doesn't matter if you miss 10 out of a 100 swings with a slow weapon or 20 out of 200 with a fast weapon, the miss rate is still 10%. The miss rate for white attacks doesn't go up just because you're using HS more.

 

Nyia

primarly sorry for english

I want to ask if there is some difference in geming equip with +10crit rating or with +5crit +5str ? Because spreadsheet is showing almost no difference. Or is there any minimal critical I should aim ?

And what I should prefer for my hands (pve arms) .. Onslaught or Grips of Silent Justice ? And which gems in them ? Same spreadsheet problem .

Thanks for replies

 

perkynose

I think it's very interesting, all this about fast or slow ohand. Im a big fan of fast for the rage generation, so i can spam heroics. A slow make me rage starved, and i would need more hit also, to make up for the less heroic spam. The extra damage i could get from a slow and even with same speed, so i would get the bugged flurry 4 swings, doesnt make up for it at all. Thats just my 2 cent. Here's some wws logs to look at. :P

Brutallus 2559 dps

Gorefiend 2801 dps

 

perkynose

To Nyia

I would go for the +5crit +5str, but it really comes down to your current stats. You need to make the decision yourself somehow, or atleast learn to. Look on armory and wws to see how the pro's do

 

Bluefang

Atm i am using the 108dps claw from SW trash, would u still think a fast 100dps weapon would beat it? I ll try using a faster OH anyway to see what happens, i have one of the trash maces from BT which fits the bill perfectly, ty for the suggestions and good work on owning the rogues in those fights, my guild GM is a rogue so there is like 4 rogues vrs me :-) lol

 

perkynose

The claw haven't dropped for us yet so i cannot say, but i definitely look forward to try it out. But you will have to try it out, what suits you best.
I also look forward to see some testing with the dual dragonstrike combo.

 

milanista11

Really nice dps there consider you not have Warglaives ( really wish to know what kind of dps you get with Warglaives ).

My question your BT maximum crit damage is like 5.5k i wander what factor make that crit so huge like that. Cause i do have what it call as AP set (havin like 2.2k something AP) and try it on RoS phase 1 (a 0 armor boss) still my maximum crit only like 4k ish.

 

• Mjollnir

Post 3501 of this very same page.

 

Gruntle

I don't think the napkin math in that post is very accurate though. 212 passive haste from the procs seems a bit exaggerated, ~160-180 is more likely. And even with 212 haste, making the DS 110 dps weapons, the weapon combo will not give you any stats at all (if you count the haste as increasing the dps).

For some more accurate testing I'd take a look at landsoul's spreadsheet which now have a working dual DS model. From what people are saying in the spreadsheet thread dual DS is not competitive at BT level. Everything from BT and up will beat them (including Vanir's fists and S3 weapons).

To Perkynose: Really impressive dps you have, really nice to see that slow-fast is working so good at high gear levels. How do you prioritize rage? Do you focus on getting HS one every white swing, even before using BT? How about WW? You have something like 40% damage coming from HS alone, which is extreme indeed. I think your logs prove that we need to look a bit more on theorycrafting alternative dps cycles in the spreadsheets.

 

Muggins

From what i've seen the spreadsheet can't calculate the haste procs stacking, it can only allow it to refresh, so even that isn't completely accurate. It looks like we may only be able to give a rough ball park figure for dual DS dps.

 

Gruktharr

i got a small and simple question...
do i do the dps i can with my current gear?

we are a 3/5 sunwell progressed guild, here's our latest wws of brutallus:
Wow Web Stats
i am 33/28 specced and here's my armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory

basically i'm asking, because i've heard of ms specced warriors doing up to 1.8 - 1.9k dps and compared to that, mine seems a tad low, most of the time, if my ping works out well i hover at 1.5 -1.6k dps :/

our usual setup for the melee group is 2 rogues, 1 warrior, 1 melee shaman and 1 ret paladin, so the support i get is pretty nice.

 

rhoxx

you need cats edge

 

Gruktharr

does it really make that of a difference? o_O

~300 dps just by switching the weapon?