The way rage is calculated is with regards to your CharacterLevel : WeaponDamage. At 80, everything will be properly scaled just as it was at 60. The issue still is that 2Hers strike for more, given the same weapon level and character level. Thus, my argument still stands.
Unless something else comes into play where rage gain is calculated differently for DW 2H then rage cap/depravity will be a serious issue. On the flip side, if we get smaller chunks of rage, then we are losing half of the benefit of DW 2Hers in the first place. The only thing I would see happening to counter this is to raise the rage cap to something like 200, but that's not a realistic change either, given the way our cousin rogues are wired.
It'll be interesting to say the least where WotLK takes everyone, and perhaps I'm not thinking enough outside of the box, but there just appears to be glaring issues with TG. Again, this could just be me.

Arms has both of these elements. Fury will never be endurance capable (unless Blood Craze gets a mad buff?).

The only way Arms would be able to have similar burst is with Sword Spec and Bladestorm (which would basically be 2 WW on a hamstrung target). DW two two-handers, intercept > auto > auto > BT > WW> Slam is more repeatable than relying on a lucky Sword Spec proc. The limiting factor for Fury is going to be hit rating.

Seems to me that Titans grip is in the wrong tree.

Hopefully they move it to arms where it belongs.

@Graul: The point I was getting at is that Arms is still going to be able to provide both burst and survivability. Fury is only going to provide burst. There will be varying levels of course, done in different ways, but current gameplay and 'leaked' xpac notes do not lead me to believe there are any [significant] changes to the current model.

This one time, in patch notes, I read about Deathwish being removed from the Fury tree.

BF is really overestimated as I said here and on blizz warrior forums multiple times. Looking at the parses you need 17-20k physical dps on fight like brutallus for BF to actually make a difference. It can happen, but its far from given. Fury warriors do ~2700 dps without glaives (at least i can), Arms gets to 2k, sometimes a bit higher. 700/0.04= 17500, not counting ruptures deep wounds lacerates from tanks etc. So on a fight with ~30k total dps , unless 2/3 is coming from physical sources , BF isnt really worth it. For us yes - we run 2 melee group+hunter group+1 caster group often... We do have BF warrior. For other guilds, you can really argue if BF is useful.

Titans grip aside - the talent tree that was leaked shows another 10% threat reduction - that alone could put me close to 3k with just t6 boots/mounting vengeance. My last kills ALL were riding threat on tanks - and I dont mean occasional threat problem - i sit around 100% threat witha bit loose heroic strike use then when i start pushing it i get above. Last kill on this wws Wow Web Stats I was above 105% threat on omen 100% of the fight beside very start when MDs pulled tanks ahead. One moment i was even above 110% (didnt pull though - either omen is wrong, or the fact that you can attack Brutallus from further away then he can melee you , makes it count the aggro as "ranged" in that case).

Now for Titans grip - I wouldnt mind a fury talent extending rage bar. Given warrior cooldown limitation and rage mechanics, some deep fury talent increasing rage maximum amount doesnt seem overpowered or strange. In its current state Titans grip just doesnt seem useful.

Fury talents I would like to see to solve some problems:

- Getting rid of zerker stance damage taken increase , incorporated into one of the talents with threat.
- Improved Rampage - 5 point talent granting 20/40/60/80/100% of Rampage AP to the party

2700dps on Brut? Highest on file is 2600+. I can't manage to view the ability breakdown but it would be safe to assume s/he is Fury. I have also seen Arms posted with putting up 2300+ on the same encounter. Knowing this, BF is still king. (WWS aren't loading for me atm).

As far as improvements to our class, I don't know of anyone who wouldn't agree the dmg redux on zerk stance would be overdue. I would love to see us get 'free' Rampage much like a Spooky's shadow spells stack 5 'shadow sunders'. We should get a stacking Rampage that adds a stack (up to 5) or refreshes each time we crit, rather than a rage loss of 20 every 20-25sec.
That being said, I can agree a Fury needs some sort of group utility. BShout is decent but doesn't scale. A Fury is far outpaced these days by MS/BF and Retadins providing raid-wide benefits, and Ferals and especially Enh Shams providing Totems/UR/Lust. Either that, or boost individual dps and provide on demand threat reduction. I would be partial to the former personally. The once staple dps warrior in 40mans has a declining habitat these days.

If Deathwish is back, I express my joy. It has been missed.

Regardless this is all speculation, but interesting nonetheless to explore some of the possibilities to come.

Ive never seen 2300+ arms wws. My link is 2684 under 2.4 parsing, and

- i miss a lot of sunwell gear (not even 4 piece t6), and using both badge claws (not a single mounting vengeance lol... not to mention )
- 2 heroisms only too, which is normal for our melee so yea.
- 1 hunter so aggro sucked - could pull 50-100 more if not for that.

I dont feel a problem with competition with arms. They do significantly less (even if 2300 was true, a fury warrior with top end gear can push 3k) dps, and they dont scale. If you have enough physical dps, then unless you are running exceptionally hunter heavy, you can fit 2nd warrior for bshout etc - and it will be an upgrade over rogue. If you have low melee, then BF warrior isnt really needed. Also note that brutallus due to full stacked dps groups synergies, and 0 movement, is PERFECT encounter for arms. Ive seen 2500+ on twins for fury, never above 1800 for arms - just the small movements here and there and a bit worse synergies and they drop... Either way there is room for ONE arms warrior, and ONE ret paladin in raid.

Ferals are not a competition at all in terms of dps honestly. Enhancement Shamans are different... I honestly think the class/spec is broken. They bring by far most buffs, and they can go over 2500 on brutallus (ours does, although not consistently - the report had her at 2450 i think. Although due to debuffs she couldnt use FS, and she attacked for 2 mins from front (we had a warlock died and she took his spot for soaking since we really push it with melee - a dead soaker has to be replaced or it gets risky). In fact unless your rogues have warglaives its up to a point that replacing rogues with ANOTHER enh shamans (the group already has one) is a raid dps boost - thats pretty stupid imo.

Thats some impressive DPS Shha. How did you get nearly 50% constant crit?

On the subject of a max rage increase talent, its doubtful. I just can't see them doing that, and even if the cap was increased, it would still be reached eventually.

Titans grip is just a means to more damage, and along with bloodsurge should make for some pretty insane DPS.

And deathwish is back were it belongs? Thats good to hear, the talents I saw were from a few days ago and have since been removed.

Crit is about what it should be honestly. Feral 5% +35% base+3% ret = 43 from the "%". Then Goa talented +kings+mark+scroll of agility=~140agi (around 5% crit). Sharpening stones add another 0.7 - overall im at around 49 (shows 49,6 on average on spreadsheets). On a side note I do a rather counter-intuitive dps priority - i basically heroic strike 1st , before using rage on instants. I posted explanation in one of other warrior topics (i dont remember which though :P)

How many drum users did you have per group and what was your kill time? You said in the Warrior forums that BL was overrated, yet I think you are understating it. With only 1 BL, a Ret Paladin instead of a Feral in our group and only 1-2x LW per DPS group I can do 2300 with a killtime at around 5'57 as Fury and without BF. We switched me out for our second Protection Warrior who has an "ok" Arms set so he could get the gear he needed from this fight since I already had what I needed. For BF being overrated, with the exact same setup besides myself being there, the kill time was only 1 second later and his personal DPS was only 1337. I have yet to do this fight as 33/28, but I am more than certain that I could pull at least 1950. We also take 3x Shadow Priests, which is very abnormal and is probably lowering our kill time by 5-10 seconds, but it works for us.

Our setup on Brutallus is: 2 Rogues, Enh Shaman, Warrior, Ret Paladin, Feral Druid (tank), Prot Warrior (tank) and 2x Hunters. I've always said it depends on the setup your guild runs with, and how hard those classes actually try. If not everyone is going all out or you run with fewer physical damage dealers, BF isn't really worth it. But on a fight like Brutallus you can hardly say it's overrated unless you are comparing it to a Warrior who has the Warglaive set.

And weren't you the one who said BF was so good that you subbed in a Prot Warrior with crappy gear for debuffs and BF originally?

We dont have many LW - maybe 6 total, most in our group - we had 2-3 (we had some deaths mid kill so had to adjust stuff and we fucked up rotation). We had 7 drums used over kill. Our kill time was around 5.50 ? We had somehow poor synergies due to attendance and 8 healers. I think we can get to maybr 5:20 or so with good groups and no rpbolems (some people dying, our highest dps warlock couldnt even get a res etc). BL is nice and dont get me wrong - its a usefull buff. Im just saying people vastly overestimate it. Even assuming perfect synergies with other stuff like trinket procs etc - a BL is at MOST 90 dps. I mostly stated that a survival hunter with imp mark, gives me more dps then stacking four extra bloodlusts... (and survival hunter gives around 2.5x more dps to the raid then BF btw).

Yea we subbed that warrior - but at the time we had 4 rogues 1 shaman 1 ret paladin 2 feral druid tanks 2 warriors and 3 hunters. We had an extremely stacked physical raid. With your setup lets see. 2 Rogues at 2400, Enh shaman at 2200 Fury at 2300 Ret at 1700 2 hunters at 2500(BM) 1800(Surv) 2 tanks at 1000. 15300 physical dps. 4% of it = 610 dps from BF. If you indeed can go 1950 vs 2300 dps then go with BF. If its 1700 vs 2300 it doesnt matter. I know for a fact that with my ping getting 1850 would be good for BF, and I can reliably go over 2600 as fury.

In fact that was my whole argument about subbing that person in. With our raid setup BF was worth it. So subbing a 1300 warrior meant getting it without me having to grab it. Now lets see - we use dual feral tank so if not for him:

- I would have to go BF , WHILE keeping imp tclap/demo (at least 4 gcd every 30 sec - the expected 1850 dps would lower to 1500 easily). 2600-1500 = 1100 dps gain.

- Other melee group would lose Bshout (around 150 dps for 2 rogues, 100 dps for ret paladin, 50 dps for feral tank) = 450 more dps.

1550 dps total in addition to 1350 personal made the "sub" have 2800 raid dps which is somehow respectable.

I see you have the same trinkets that I do. One of the reasons I always hated playing 33/28 other than having to skip Slams due to timing issues with procs and something moving was latency. It may have been a fluke, but if you looked at the WWS I posted in the 2h thread, I essentially used 0 Slams on any boss fight and did for the most part (and ironically in some cases higher) than what I do with a MH glaive and Mounting Vengeance as Fury. I would say the way I am playing it would *require* a DST and a sword at least, but you don't have to worry about latency issues this way. Not sure if you have a CE or not, but you might try it out sometime to see how well you do.

I am having a really strange sense of deja vu in this thread now too.

Well Im really not too convinced. Teron is taking around 12% more dmg then brutallus due to lower armor, and its a way shorter fight. Ill have to give it a shot sometime, but frankly it just "doesnt compute". You could go with double sword then and just dual wield - White dmg would suffer from around 15% miss and maybe 10% lower, but you would get a 60% boost from your oh. 90*85*160= 22% increase. MS would be around 33% smaller but do only 13% of your damage. Heroic strike dps would be a bit higher due to better effectiveness with 1h. WF is more effective, sword spec is about same (offhand hits generating mh swings really shine with dual wield).

I'm one of two Fury Warriors in my raiding guild, and the only one with a Solarian's Sapphire. I have been using a Shard of Contempt in my second trinket slot, but recently acquired a Dragonspine Trophy. Is the consensus that DST scales better in raids than SoC? With a Sapphire, SoC, and DST, should I think about looting Madness of the Betrayer?

Thanks and sorry if I'm parroting an ancient post in this thread.

'Scales' is a poor argument for choosing gear, when it is all available to you. Just use whichever is better for you currently.

Well, Weapon Mastery + SoC + t6 Belt will give you all the expertise you need. Up until the expertise cap, SoC is better than DST (should check landsoul's DPS spreadsheet). However, since your an Orc, you may be able to reach the cap (~6.50%) without the SoC.

I'd use SoC + Sapphire unless your using axes, and have t6 belt (or Vashj's). In that case, use DST + Sapphire? This is all easily modeled again by landsoul's spreadsheet.

I cannot agree with you, just did some windows calculator math on your log, and BF added 630~ dps. Any arms warrior worth his salt would be pulling 2200 if not a lot more with your gear and your support. I remember doing 1900 a couple months ago with only bracers from sunwell, and no feral or boomkin FF. However I think Brut would eat his face maybe even before those death wish reck executes.

Modrack (2057) Wow Web Stats

He had 1 BL and used the Sapphire. He added ~597 DPS. It's safe to say he contributed at least what a Fury Warrior doing 2600 would have done and with less support. Their kill time is much faster than the "average" guild that uses either eight healers or three tanks, so that's going to inflate his numbers very slightly (maybe 50 - 75 DPS?) but it still shows that both BF and BL are being underrated by some. He also seems to have a near perflect Slam rotation. I don't see very many WWS with an almost 1:1 Steady Shot like ratio when using Slam, even if that's how it should look.

These kinds of numbers honestly confuse the hell out of me...

Currently I'm running basically the best gear available to my guild (minus T6 boots) and the best I've ever managed is about 1850 (Wow Web Stats) on Brutallus.

Granted this isn't one of our fastest kills but I can't get my head around how arms warriors are hitting 2100+ DPS. Rage permitting my slam rotation is dead on, latency being around 150-180. Switch to dual weild (swiftsteel/s2 mace) for execute spam during Heroism/Haste Pot/Death Wish/Reck and then back to slam rotation once Heroism wears off.

In that WWS the high miss rate (8%) on Swing is due to switching to dual weild at sub 20%, past that I should have a 0% miss rate as I was hit and expertise capped.

Group setup is usually far from optimal, but not horrible; generally Enh Shaman - Me - Fury War - Rogue - Rogue.

Any ideas or recommendations? It's really pissing me off that I can't get anywhere near the numbers some of you guys are pushing out.

I don't really think it's worth switching out your weapons for Execute when you have Bloodlust, Drums, Haste Potion and Flurry up. You are either beating your GCD or coming close enough and without the added miss. And I just noticed you also have a DST, so that's another haste effect that might not always be up during Bloodlust at sub 20%, but it could just as easily be up.

And I cannot agree with you that a MS/BF warrior will do at minimum 2200 DPS or even "a lot more" (so like 2400-2600 DPS?).

They usually won't, and I'm not sure where he's getting those numbers from. Modrack might have been able to pull off 2150 with the same buffs, which still has him doing more than you did *with* BF, but he's not in an average guild either.