Must be nice to have better than 50% uptime on bloodlust o_O.

No, AP is AP.
From a pure percentage standpoint you have halved the overall AP increase in your latter example. Regardless, that AP will still add the same DPS increase it did from 15k to 16k.

Also I'm wondering with the latest crazes being over 2hand Imp Slam and Haste effects if we'll see the return of the Iron Counterweight any time soon.

I think Mongoose's haste effect (along with the crit) is probably going to attract more people. But I do wonder if haste to gloves might make a comeback and compete with 15 str s enchant of choice.


Also, with imp Slam, you can have the best of both worlds, sort of. A slow, hard-hitting weapon as well as a bang-bang speedy move.

Indeed haste and armor penetration are the 'hidden' stats that make my gear so much better than others. 9.13% passive haste and -175 armor penetration at the cost of crit and hit, but oh so much superior it is. And also I use dragonstrike in mh, losing out on even more stats but gain the haste proc, which in my opinion is far superior to any other of the blacksmithing weapons.

It was a nice experience indeed, and having 14% damage done in a 25 man raid is just a very cool feeling. We used to have casters on the stationary adds at shade, but decided to change it yesterday since our melee do way more dps than our casters. The result was a kill in less than half the time it used to take.

I didn't halve the AP in the second example...it was +100 in both cases. The point was, that at 3200 AP, 1% crit adds more dps then it does at 1500AP, where as AP is the same amount of DPS regardless of how much you have.

@SVAG We should try to model the effects of haste and -armor penetration, to see how they stack up to more crit/hit/AP.

Yes, AP is AP and will add the same increase in damage. The thing is though, that's all it does. After you reach the point where raid buffed your incoming rage is almost more than you can actually spend it without using a fast weapon and Heroic Strike on every swing, wouldn't adding 1% crit will have more of an impact than adding more AP? Crit and AP are obviously synergetic and scale with how each stat is independantly. If you can already do X DPS, how is adding +Y going to be more beneficial than adding +% after a point, especially when you consider abilities that rely on crits? And to the best of my knowledge, even raid buffed it's impossible to reach the crit cap now with current itemization.

I don't think that haste is even in the spread sheet

Hit = more white damage (assuming not hit capped)
Haste = more white damage, and more heroics (assuming constant pounding of HS...personally i don't think anyone uses HS enough to actually benefit from this though)

As for -armor, i've heard it said that armor protection is a linear scale of protection up to the 75% cap, even though it takes more and more armor to gain 1% mitigation. I think this has to do with something in my following example.

going from 1-2% armor reduction is doubling your mitigation, true, but you are only going from 99 to 98% damage "let through", which is little more then a 1% increase in survivability. On the other hand, going from 74-75% is again, a 1% increase in mitigation, but you are going from 26-25% damage "let through" which is an increase of nearly 4%. It's that "let through" (Inverse armor mitigation?) that causes the armor formula to scale strangely as you get more and more armor.

Theoretically, we should be able to track down the armor formula (Link anyone? Search isn't helping me out here) and work out an equation for how effective -armor is, with variables for amount of -armor, and the mob's starting armor (Which is REALLY easy to calculate with bloodthirst, since it hits for a static amount)

Haste doesn't seem to be modeled correctly on the spreadsheet. It actually shows a drop in DPS replacing a Bloodlust Brooch with the Dragnonspine Trophy and also only shows Dragonstrike in it's basic form without any haste effects.

It doesn't make sense that the spreadsheet doesn't appreciate haste/-armor like it should.

Flurry(Haste) is the talent that kept Warriors competitive in Raid DPS for all of WoW Classic.

-armor trinkets were also always amazing as well for increasing DPS, and let's not get into the beginning of BC when every Rogue was running around with The Night Blade.

They're amazing stats.

I always say " maybe use WF here and there " but he just complains to the raid leader and tells me to stop telling him how to play his class. Only reason I had it today and yesterday was we had two enchancement shamans in the group. 14% of overall damage is very nice, most ive managed is about 13%. Such a great feeling though, and 2k DPS sustained.. jesus I cant wait till I get that level of gear ^.

Armor ignore is good, but I think haste may be better. Ive not yet got any armor ignore items ( used to have the night blade way back and it was fun PVPing against casters with - armor value :P ) but I dont know how well it would work in a raid setting, especially as its effect depends on the mobs armor and is there any way to determine a mobs / bosses armor value?

On another note, the effectiveness of dragonspine trophy is hard to calculate as the proc rate is 1.7 PPM from listed weapon speed, the proc rate is increased by flurry = instant attacks, so for example say you have a 2.7 and 2.0 speed wep, the proc rate is 1.7 with 60/2.7 + 60/2.0 attacks ( 60 seconds / by listed wep speed ), instants also increase this so say 10 BT in 60 seconds + WW ect, that also increases the proc rate. as does WF. Its one awesome trinket though thats for sure.

First of all: MobMitigation.

According to http://www.wowwiki.com/Armor;
Levels 60+ DR% = Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59)))

As an example, 5000 armor on a level 73 mob is 29.5% reduction

Void Reaver has 1500 armor after sunders + cor + ff.
According to the formula I posted he has 1500/(1500+400+85*(73+4.5*(73-59))) mitigation, or 11.1%.

With my neck as an example of armor mitigation, he has 1325 after the necks reduction of 175. 1325/(1325+400+85*(73+4.5*(73-59))) = 9.9% reduction

A hit of 1000 would without the neck be 889 damage. With the neck a hit of the same would be 901 instead. A 1.3% damage increase. Nothing huge. But lets see what happens on a low armor target.

High Astromancer Solarian has 200 armor after sunder + cor + ff. A 1.7% reduction. After my neck she's down to 0.2%. That's a 1000 hit reduced to 983 before neck and 998 after. 1.5% damage increase.

Conclusion? I don't know. Armor penetration is good, although maybe not very noticable on its own. Lets see what happens when we stack it.

Void Reaver again. 1500 armor. But this time we have 500 armor penetration from gear (not very hard to get if you're in BT). Before he has 11.1%, after he has 7.7%. A hit of 1000 reduced to 923. 3.8% damage increase.

I put this information together during raidtime so please tell me if I did anything wrong, but I checked it through and didn't see anything.

Thoughts?

Yeah, in other words, 1% crit gives more dps at 10000 ap than it does at 1000 ap (random numbers for logic). simple as that.

so i'm basically gearing myself with crit and buffing myself with ap, just to even it out.

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but it seems that, at least below the hit cap, 1% haste and 1% hit are roughly analogous in terms of the amount of contributed damage. haste should come out slightly ahead due to the way that multiple attack speed increasing affects multiply, and also the fact that it takes about 5 less points of rating for 1% haste than for 1% hit. Is there something I'm missing here other than the cheaper itemization for haste that makes it much better for DPS than other available stats?

I tend to run around the 55% mark for white/heroic strike damage. Our shaman has been MIA the last week or two, so I don't know how much more of my damage would be based off auto attack if I had windfury. Without WF though, 1% haste for me should work out to roughly .55% more damage? Probably a little more, since I can freely turn any excess rage into heroic strike, for an effectively lower main hand hit cap.

If the reduce armor wasn't so much more expensive itemization wise, I would much prefer it due to it effecting all damage equally, besides bleeds. However it looks like the choice is between 2-3% haste, or ~1% increased damage from armor reduction, if even that much, in most of the slots where there is a choice between the two.

Exactly right Katrael

As for the -armor discussion, if SVAG's numbers are correct (and i have no reason to believe they aren't, they seem to mesh with known values) then -armor isn't as great a stat as i'd hoped it would be.

I used Icon of unyielding courage for a fairly long time, and when you activated the -600 armor effect on it, it was a noticeable increase in damage of at least 8-10%. I remember examples of me using it on Aran, and landing 3300+ bloodthrists when i had 200-300 less AP then i do now.

Let's assume the extra haste doesn't give you any extra rage and lets also assume it affects 50% of your damage.

If I do 1000 dps with only autoswings and 0 haste, doing 60 auto swings per minute with an average of 1000 damage per hit (to build up some real fact here I'd need to check exact stats... anyone care parsing a log and calculating it?).

5% haste would give you 3 more swings per minute or another 3000 damage per minute, 50 dps. or a linear 5% increase of your white dps. If that would be 50% of my damage then 5% haste would be 2.5% overall damage increase (going from 2000 to 2050 dps). Very simple. The more attacks you do per minute the more extra swings you gain from haste, though. Combatlog parse of a full encounter aaaaaanyone?

However this also doesn't take into account extra rage generated so it's flawed, so overall damage gain is probably a little bit higher.

If he has exactly 600 armor (4.8% mitigation), and you reduce it to zero, a hit of 3000 would gain 144 damage from that trinket, 5.04% damage increase (which is A LOT from a trinket activate)

Hi,

about armor reduction is Badge of the Swarmguard (from Sartura, reduce armor by 200, stack up 6 times for 30s, 3mn cooldown) still interesting at 70 ? I don't wear it since BC so I really dunno if the other trinkets I have are better in raid situation (Hourglass of the Unraveller and Abacus of Violent Odds).

Any advice ?

Thanks !

It's lacking passive stats so in my opinion it's quite weak, I would stay with your trinkets.

delete plz.

I've read a lot through this thread but there's one thing i have yet to really see answered, and that's the arguments as to what's the best dps spec for pve. I've generally thought that much like Classic WoW, dual wield fury still topped dps while 2h fury was made more viable. But I've recently been hearing about how great 31/30 for dps (and mabye even 33/18 to grab blood frenzy)

I'm really curious on some opinions on this. Is it as simple as do which ever you enjoy more and benefits more from your weapons/gear? Or is it more like one spec is better as gear scales?

Im afraid people are still really in the testing and gearing phase of dps warriors, and other then just playing with the spreadsheet, its hard to give you exact answers on which build is better. I'm fairly certain, that just like in vanilla wow, fury will eventually outpace MS because of the double scaling of your gear with 2 weapons. However, atm, you are correct, most end game guild dps warriors that I have seen are specced 33/28 for imp slam build.

So far in this thread every argument about raiding as MS has been because of bloodfrenzy, so ms/flurry is not even close to fury in terms of raid dps.

DW Fury destroys any MS or 2H Fury build. End of story. I've done 33/28 and done decent dmg, but as DW Fury I can top the charts on almost any fight.