Confirmed. I tested this months ago and provided a screenshot buried in this mountain of a thread. It is easily tested oneself with a 2H.

I started trying it out, and so far it provides substantial (100dps on a fight where i do ~2500) boost. However the sample is really small right now. Its not too annoying to use honestly. I use 2 macros basically

/castsequence reset=6 (i went up from 2 before, because of problems sometimes) Bt,WW,Ram,BT,WW,BT
and
/castsequence reset=0.1 HS,Slam taken from this forums.

Question now is, where to take those 2 points for slam from ! :P

edit: mispost

Precision, assuming you don't need all 3 to stay above 9%.

Well the :P I hoped would indicate sarcasm. I just wanted to point out one more weakness of the build - 17/44 build is really set in stone and getting imp Slam is a serious tradeoff.

Anyway to elaborate more on the subject. I'm pretty sure the whole thing can be brought down to one castsequence. I found I rarely slam at all except for 2 obvious points in the 18 second rotation.

Rotation as follows for the build


BT
WW
Rampage
FREE CD
BT
FREE CD
FREE CD
WW
BT
FREE CD
FREE CD
FREE CD

Leaves 2 spots for using Slam - after 2nd and 3rd BT. Anywhere else, and on top of other drawbacks you also delay your instants most likely - making it a bad investment.

It also makes the decision making rather easy - rage is never really a problem.

Knowing that we can try to estimate math behind the whole Slam business.

Over 18 seconds we slam twice so the quick gains/expenses table

we gain
2xSlam damage

we lose
2x 0.5-0.6 sec on white swing (latency really isnt a problem with the castsequence) - on BOTH hands. So we can assume delaying your MH/OH attacks by 1.1 sec (we are talking about synced or half synced weapons - half synced means that your OH is twice as fast as mh - practically case for warglaives)
30 rage for slams
rage from the white hits.



Now lets look at data for my warrior. (Data for fight like Brutallus)
White MH = ~2350crits/1150 hits. OH = 62.5% of it. Crit rate = 44%. Glancing Rate = 25% Miss rate = 12% Average White MH+OH = 2336. Average White MH = 1440.
Weapon speed = ~1.73 WITHOUT DST proc
1.1 of white attacks = 1485 damage loss.

Slam damage. MH + 140 - so 2740 crits 1290 hits 44% Crit rate = 1928 average. we get it twice so 3860 around.

2375 damage ahead so far.
Now to make it simpler - the rage we lose is around 30+1 MH hit. Its around 1.5 heroics. Heroics damage is actually same as slam - averaging 1930 around, vs white hits averaging 1440. So by not using heroics here we get 735 damage loss.

2375-735= 1640. Over 18 second rotation it adds up to 90 dps.

HOWEVER, the important part is here. We also risk of not getting TWO wf procs, so on average 40% of a "improved WH". To shorten the math we can assume WF clipped procs to average 1600 damage, so 40% of it means 640 further down the drain and reduction in effectiveness to ~50 dps. Hopefully something blizzard will fix.

That math is probably flawed at times. Its a hasty work, and It doesnt pretend to be perfect - or even useful for making real calculation. The reason for posting it is simple, it SEEMS that the whole concept is viable, and the accuracy of math here is enough to prove that in my opinion.


P.S This assumes badge fists (still no luck on OH ), synced with speed. If someone wants, math for warglaives should be probably even better - 10% slower weapon means harder slams for same "investment" basically - so even more viable.

Edit: For blatant math mistake.

So this is what ended up working for you Landsoul? You only used it when both BT and WW were on the high cooldowns like just before the BT WW rotation resets right?

He pretty much opened his post saying that any deviation from the standard 17/44 Fury build is a pretty serious trade off.

Here are my thoughts on high-end TBC fury warriors. Feel free to correct me as what I'm saying is really just a gathering of observations.

I see many of the fury warriors that have access to the full sunwell loot table are switching to fast offhands, whether it be [Grip of Mannoroth] or warglaives (or [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] in the case of spreadsheet-defying Perkynose).

What could be the cause of this? Well let's examine what makes a slow offhand preferential in the first place. A common misconception (although I'm sure it's fairly uncommon on these forums) is that the increased damage from whirlwind puts slow offhands in front. In reality the reason they have always been better is because the slower attack speed over the course of a boss fight uses so many less flurry charges, therefore allowing a significant increase in instant attacks per 3 flurry charges thus vastly increasing flurry uptime.

Now, when you reach the level of gear available at the end of TBC content, your raid buffed crit is 9 times out of 10 going to be over 40%. 40% crit has such a ridiculously high flurry uptime that the use of a slow offhand provides a marginal increase. Also at this level of gear you'll be sitting around 200+ hit rating and expertise capped. With stats like these a slow offhand becomes inferior due to offhands striking so much that the extra rage generation allows constant usage of heroic strike. Fin.

I was always under the impression that matching weapon speed, while likely ideal, was still a distant third to raw white DPS and stats when choosing an off hand weapon.

Question peoples. I am always looking to see what can be done w/ prot as far as dps goes. I know 1H Weapon Specialization increases your shield slam damage, but what about dual wield specialization? It reads with 5 points, "increases the damage by your offhand weapon by 25%"

Even if you assume that matched weapons always gives you 4 flurried attacks and unmatched always 3 you will find that the difference in flurry uptime between slow-fast and slow-slow is on the order of a few percent (for reasonable values of crit). In reality this is not how it works since flurry can go on and off midswing, making the difference even smaller (this was tested a while back by dr_ALLCOM3 in the 2.3 spreadsheet thread). All in all the effect of having 2-3% higher flurry uptime will be a lot smaller than the the lost damage from WW.

The main reason for going with a slow oh is the increased WW damage (about 0.5% in total dps), not increased flurry uptime. Otherwise I agree with your conclusion, having close to unlimited rage makes HS a lot more important than WW as a source of damage and a fast OH can help slightly with this (even though I'm sure slow offhands works fine as well).

Hey guys, figured I'd post about something that has been bothering me for a while to see if I can get some assistance.

First of all, I raid as DW fury, and since I'm prot right now on my armory, and for the weekend I'll be pvp spec, so I'll just give my gear: Illidari helm, choker of serrated blades, tier 6 shoulders, teron's cloak, sunwell BS chest piece (love it!), tier 6 bracers, grips of silent justice (trying to get immortal dusk but only two people who can craft it in server quit the game lawl), red belt of battle, endless rage legs (divine ret wont drop >.<), boots of obliteration (RoS is being a betch), Illidan ring, ZA timed event Ring, Shard of Contempt, DST, Badges xbow, Dragonstrike and Swiftsteel Bludgeon.

My problem is, my dps is getting me pissed right now because in Teron I get like 1870dps (was my best so far on him but pulled aggro and died, prolly would've made it to 1900+) and on Hyjal it was normal for me to hit around the 1700-1800dps (havent done hyjal in a while). Regardless, on Brutallus its hard for me to keep 1700dps. I bet having to be the demoshout guy now (which has given me some trouble to be honest, incorporating it in the rotation, even though I know it shouldnt) and having to use Solarian Sapphire cause arms warrior wont use it >.< dont help at all, but seeing as some people here are doing 2.6k+ dps I know there must be something wrong with how I'm dpsing.

We havent killed Brutallus yet, we're having troubles with tanks dying, so we havent been able to get too many 20% > test runs yet so no recklessness nor even heroisms normally, but still I think I should be doing better. My main concern and question would be:

What type of dps do you fury warriors are normally doing in that fight before heroism and executes?

Also, read about Shha (or is it Ssha? I'm sorry if I miss typed it ) giving priority to heroic strikes rather than instants? Is that correct? And how many seconds before running out do you refresh rampage to help maximize performance? Cause I've had the problem that I tried to wait for around 5 seconds or less, and BT or WW or both come up around that time, or I go rage starved with a bad streak of misses, and I lose it =(

I'm on my way to get the left fist weapon from badges, since warglaives refuse to drop for us (Im going to get em most likely but 16 kills, no glaives) nor mounting vengeance and I used my badges for some of the tanking gear (I dps and tank both almost equally as needed be), but I doubt that only the offhand would make so much difference in dps.

Thanks in advance on any tip that you guys could share.

Well first of all, waiting for things to drop is your first mistake. Warglaive, boots, divine ret, etc. just plan on them not dropping anytime soon. Get rid of the Dragonstrike. Pickup a 4 piece replacing your legs and gloves as a quick, easy fix for a little boost. Grab the Ninja leather badge boots or season4, which are slightly better than warboots when gemmed correctly. Talk to your melee leader and see if arms warrior can do demo/solarian since that is their job. Grab an S3 weapon at least, or if you cant PvP, the badge fist. Mounting Vengeance will also help you, if it does drop. I wouldnt recommend heroic priority at your gear level. Just stick to 6 second BT 9 second WW rotation. Try to refresh rampage at the end of its timer, or up to 10 seconds early if you need to lineup your rage/cooldowns in order. If your rage bank is high, spam the heroic strike button. Spam those buttons. You can get a bloodthirst with windfury attack power if times correctly. Chain haste pots. Go leatherworking for drums of battle. Use recklessness, BT/WW/HS with heroism, switch to fast/fast when reck is done and spam BT/execute.

If you are tanking part time, why would you be after a glaive against a rogue who might have more tenure or DPS in general, regardless of DKP or any system you use?

Regardless, these kinds of help posts in general do not belong on these forums, but I will help you out anyways.

What about for execute phase? fast / fast is still the best? Surely you aren't WWing during execute

Surely you could check the armory and answer that by yourself.

If this is not the place, then I apologize for posting in the first place.
As for the glaives, I tank because we didnt had a second tank. I was tank with another warrior, a feral druid and 2 pally tanks, so I wasnt needed, went fury, both pallies stopped playing, now we got another pally and another warrior a few days ago so I wont have to tank anymore. And everyone knew I wouldnt tank stuff when I got the glaives.

Thanks a lot for the tips, I totally agree with you that waiting for things to drop is what has been kicking my behind the most =/
Thanks again.

Tankin (and maybe also landsoul), I think you have misunderstood the "heroic strike" priority cycle. It has little to do with gear level, a lot more to do with the type of fights that are common in SWP. You need a lot of incoming damage to maintain the rage generation needed to spam HS on every hit. Also, you will not quit doing BT/WWs just because you're doing HS, you do both in this situation. BT/WW will always be higher in damage/rage, there is no way you can get higher damage by not doing those attacks and only doing HS. This is true even with a fast MH.

In the logs it will seem like all you do is HS (having 40% damage from HS in the wws log is not uncommon), but this is due to how HS works. HS replaces a white hit, so 40% HS damage just means that you have taken a lot of the white damage and converted it to HS.

edit: I meant "little to do with gear level" as in "less to do with gear level than incoming damage".

If you keep referring to my wws/post, then I feel obliged to correct you.
My "heroic priority", as you can actually read in my own post has nothing to do with dropping WW/BT from rotation. It doesnt even really prioritize HS over them. What it means I forfeit the rage buffer people keep to make sure to be able BT/WW on cooldown. I st3ated that with good enough gear, the possibility of being rage starved and not be able to BT/WW is low, and possible delay of 0.5-1 sec in worst case, wont make as much difference in dps, as losing rage on few crits because you tried to stay at 60+ all time like some people advise. In short - if your BT/WW are on cooldown, you do HS, if they are not, they have priority. However I just dont stay "above xx rage", before i do heroics - I do them every time i can afford them.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. That's what I initially thought, but when I went looking on the WWS scoreboards, I just got more confused.

I realize now that I was forgetting to factor in execute phase and that explains the lower number of BTs/WWs than I was expecting based on the length of the fight assuming a perfect rotation. I just assumed it was because of such high heroic strike usage, but now I see why my logic was flawed.

It so does too have to do with gear level. Incoming damage + insane rage generation = a lot of rage. You cant have it without lots of gear. You don't walk into Sunwell with partial BT gear and expect to have an unlimited rage supply even if you take that incoming damage, right? The implication is to spam heroic strike without having to worry about rage management, because once the BT and WW timer is available, all you have to do is literally wait less than a second and yuo will have the rage to use it. Keeping your hits per second high through the use of heroic strike, negating clances and misses in the main hand, to guarantee more procs and windfury, begin to shine. Keeping the rotation is sill optimal since it is so tight, but you have to worry less about having the rage for it because you HS too much.

Of course it has to do with gear level as well, but when running with slow-slow (or fast-fast too for that matter but less so) and trying to do HS on every white hit (+BT/WW cycle) I suspect that even end-game gear will not be enough. The rage from incoming damage will be necessary to get the rage generation smooth enough for HS to be usable at every swing. I think you need both great gear and incoming damage to make it work.

Well, I suppose that at some point with enough gear you can manage to generate enough rage with minimum incoming damage and your offhand doing all the work. May it be from excess of armor penetration that makes your offhand hit hard enough or a lot of haste (DTS, Warglaive proc, Flurry, haste, all that good stuff), that makes your offhand fast enough to generate enough rage to sustain your rotation + heroics on every hit, I'm sure when you're hitting 2.6k dps its posible.

For me, I'm still quite dependant on raid damage to be able to perform such feat. For instance, Brutallus, which as very low incoming damage encounter (on melee group) makes me stay around 1600-1700dps (without heroism/recklessness/execute phase since we have gotten him below 20% only a handful of times, and a lot of times missing key buffs like an enhancement shaman due to attendance... yeah...), getting rage starved quite often, making me break my rotation by a couple seconds, yet at Teron I can go all the way up to 1900 (and most likely pull aggro and get my face removed like last week).

Just like Landsoul says, my level of gear is just not at that point yet indeed, and that I could notice quite clearly last night doing Brutallus and see myself go rage starved and having to wait like 3 seconds waiting to BT, then having to skip that BT because I noticed my rampage has 2 seconds before it falls off (and I time my rampage have demoshout behind it, so I panic at the idea of demo falling off). That really hurts dps a lot.

What I do assume is that just like pre BC, warriors (fury specially) escalate really well with gear at end game, and the jump from 1.9kdps to 2.4k dps is a matter of only a couple months of gearing (last pieces of BT and getting some items in sunwell like the rest of tier 6). Warriors have an unusual synergy with their stats and how they affect rage generation that eventually, from the point I'm stuck in right now to the point Landsoul is, or Shha is, gear makes your rage generation be independant from raid damage, increasing dps exponentially, which is something that rogues for example dont get to enjoy. I could be wrong, of course. It might just a bold idea on my part. But it does look like from the point I am and forwards is when a dps warrior becomes the dps warrior they were in Naxx days that you couldnt get rid of the rage fast enough, getting the benefit of both the stat increase from the gear and the benefit of the rage generation increase as well.