Randor

Well, then we should end the discussion right here and now.

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shadowscion

just wondering, what weapons were you using with both specs? i'm not doubting fury dps, i just want to know about where the line is where fury dps out-dps's 31/30. my guild just started SSC and TK recently so our gear is still limited. i just chose 31/30 cuz i can pvp with it as well.

 

gatz

I've always dps'd as DW fury.
I've been 1st Dps from chromaggus to Saphiron before TBC.

In 25 men raids I top dps while dwing my dual 97 dps weapons.
My problem is that I do too much threat. I've tryed fetish of the sand reaver, cleave instead of heroic strike, harmstring instead of cleave I still often grab aggro.

Last week I respec'd 33 / 28.
I can go all out, I top the dps meters and other melees get 4% more damage.

 

dr_AllCOM3

You don't top dmg meters. It's impossible, pure DPS classes can always do more damage.

 

Paa

Arms is very good atm and i dont see it being out paced by fury by much if at all.

I'm currently arms spec with blood frenzy as we generally raid with 4 hunters 3 rogues 2 feral druids and 2 prot warriors and myself - Thats alot of physical dps.

My arms stats unbuffed:

1862 AP
38.18% crit
116 hit rating

My fury stats unbuffed:

1970
201 hit rating
33% crit

I was using gorehowl for arms and decapitator and malchazeen for fury.

Fury dps was ok but not much better than arms dps in raids and adding in blood frenzy put arms way ahead.

As a note im doing about 800dps as arms without a shaman of any kind.

I really think it depends on your raid setup if fury is worthwhile going, I personally found it underwhelming except for the 1800dps i pulled on Illhoof in a karazhan run this week.


So i would not say DW fury destroy's arms at all.

 

panny

I'm not a warrior, but I would love this trinket as Enhancement. Last time I checked, Badge of the Swarmguard doesn't share a trinket cooldown with other trinkets. Meaning you could pop it with your Abacus/Bloodlust Badge/whatever. Everyone knows that having AP/crit/-armor/haste buffs at the same time is beneficial as you get a mutliplying effect. If I can, I try to wait until I have dual Mongoose, Dragonstrike proc, and Hourglass proc before I activate Bloodlust and Bloodlust Badge. Having at least two trinkets for max on demand dps for damage windows and vulnerabilites could be very valuable for certain encounters.

Rishina, tell your Shaman that there's no way that Flametongue/Poisons+GoA is more group dps than WF alone if you have a decent warrior in your group. This isn't even bringing Searing Totem into it.

 

Gokey

Read through this thread before you make anymore abstract claims.

 

D4vE

Inspired from Svag we brought one more tank to Akama this week (2nd kill) and I went in as fury. Indeed we had one wave of adds less than on the first kill and the Shade of Akama went down faster as well.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=avypoevyfzrwm

This dps meters are less tweaked, we had no BL rotation (in this attempt no BL at all, since it was on cooldown from a previous attempt), and no BM hunter. Still as a "hobby fury warrior" sustaining 1500 dps was well worth the change in tactics and incredible fun to play as well (you just have to love 4k bloodthirst crits on those squishy channelers). Still can't beat our rogues though =)



Concerning the spec discussion: 33/28 is just more situational in my opinion. A full fury warrior delivers his dps as soon as he starts to hit something, while a blood frenzy/MS warrior needs the whole raid to hit the same target as him to reach the same potential. Apparently on "split dps" fights like Lurker or Akama (or on bleed immune mobs like Supremus obviously) a fury warrior has more dps potential.

The new dps stats like haste and ignore armor will get very interesting for 2H builds in my opinion (2H fury as well as 33/28), since those builds need less hit gear and the trade off for taking the new stats will be less severe.

 

svagftw

Popping trinkets on cooldown is better than waiting a minute for the other one to refresh.

We went from 8 minutes on channelers to 3 minutes. Best change in tactics we ever made since our melee have always been way in top of our casters, and no we don't have poor dps, 1k dps is about #9-10 on our meters on most fights.

Sorry but 800 dps is pretty terrible.

Listen to the cow! I have yet to survive Supremus though.

Too bad all items with haste sacrifice crit in favor for hit then ^^

 

panny

Are you saying in every single encounter, it's never optimal to wait, given damage windows/vulnerabilities?

 

svagftw

As long as you know you will stay in melee for full duration, there's no reason not to pop trinkets and cooldowns. The exception being deathwish, which is worth waiting a minute popping if you're close to execute range.

And to add something new to discuss.. heroism timing!

We would just use heroism on melee group at the same time as casters, sometime in the middle of the fight, until one of our Naj'entus kills where enhancement shammy forgot to pop it midfight so we got it in execute range instead. We had 2 fury warriors in the group and the result was.. amazing, 100 rage executes every 1.5 seconds. Coupled with recklessness and deathwish we both did close to 4000 dps the last 20%.

Since then we always tell him to save it, you should do the same, tell your shammy to give it a shot, wait with heroism until execute range. I'm sure you'll like it.

 

Dotts

Svag I skimmed through to see if anyone asked about this but didn't see anything.

On the 1% haste thing. on 10000 hits your said you'd get 100 extra hits.
Wouldn't it be more proper to say that over the amount of time it takes you to do normal 10000 attacks with 1% haste you have 100 more attacks. Because you'd still have the normal amount of chance to miss.

 

svagftw

Yeah, of course, sorry. That's what I meant obviously but I chose the wrong word, 100 extra swings would be more appropiate and it was really just a quick overview of how haste would work, you'd get parries and dodges on those swings as well. Thanks for pointing that out though.

That makes me think though, since hits you get from +hit can't miss/get parried/dodged (in the one roll theory) is haste really that much better? Other than the fact it's much cheaper on the itembudget.

[edit] Actually, hasted hits have the chance to be crits, +hitted hits don't. So I guess it's still better.

 

D4vE

Well we play Supremus very safe (no one goes near him during gaze), so those numbers are not that impressive, i still could keep up with the other melee.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=bpiqwonn4rteg

And yes if you check healing and consumables taken compared to the rogues, it is pretty much a lottery =)
Damn cloak of shadows, or 15% more dmg taken in zerk stance+DW

 

svagftw

I usually have more damage done than that on supremus, and I die on like 50%. That fight is just.. horrible

 

Jamm

I recently got a Cataclysm's Edge from Archimonde and decided to give 31/30 a go just to see how it would perform for me, I've been a Fury warrior for pretty much my entire raiding life and bluntly thought to myself that it would not even come close to my Fury DPS. How wrong was I, to be honest I'm quite sure I do more DPS as 31/30 than I did with 17/44 which I found extremely odd to say the least, I run with the standard melee group consisting of a Enhancement Shaman and a Feral Druid and man do I pump out the DPS.

I think a big part of it could be down to the incredible Windfury procs I receive from Cataclym's coupled with sword proc just makes the extra white damage supreme compared to my Talon of the Phoenix. I usually run with 13.13% haste and around -700 armor reduction and I can certainly say it makes up for the hit and crit I will lose.

Sorry I have no proof of what I say but as 31/30 I could come top 3 (rogues-_-) on pretty much any fight except supremus for obvious reasons! So in short I'm saying once you get a great 2h try out 31/30, you won't be disappointed because I sure as hell wasn't :P You can check my 31/30 stats and gear in Armory and my Fury stats are as followed:

(Zerker stance)
29% crit
2066 AP
14% hit
13.13% haste
Talon of the Phoenix MH
Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH

As fury I use the standard BT>WW(1 point imp WW)>Hamstring rotation and very rarely use heroic unless the MT is dishing out some serious threat as obviously I can catch up during execute range.

I'm most likely going to try Fury again once I get the mace from Supremus as I feel that my DPS style is heavily based on Windfury and that mace has an extremely high top end and 2.8 speed. So we will see, but for now in my opinion 31/30 > 17/44 _IF_ you have one of the top end 2 handers.

 

Katrael

This was the point I was ineffectually driving at in my earlier post. It seems that below the hit cap, haste and hit serve much the same function. My very back-of-the-napkin math tells me that haste should be rather better than hit, due to heroic strike, and the ability to crit. The biggest reason though, is that haste seems to be much cheaper in the rating to % conversion than hit, making it a better stat to stack up white damage once you gain access to plentiful haste gear.

 

shadowscion

just wondering, does anyone use timelapse shard or shrouding potions at all?

 

Randor

Here's another question: What to do when you can probably find a cure for cancer quicker than you can convince the powers that be to give a shammy for windfury?

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Typhon

Take the powers that be through an instance with a windfury shammy and then without a windfury shammy, both times with damage meters running so they can see the difference in damage and rage generation. Something like Arca, where you have both safe single-target and multi-target pulls.

Mind you, if the powers that be are already refusing to give windfury to a warror then perhaps it is time you found new powers that be.

 

svagftw

If you don't use fury to it's full potential and you feel threat capped, of course you will do same dps as mortal strike. Also "top 3" doesn't say anything, you could be doing 1000 dps and be top 3 in some guilds. 1000 dps in Paci is barely top 10 on meters.

[edit] For example, on Anetheron last week the tank was for some reason not building enough threat. I was threatcapped from 100% to 0, 420k dmg done. The mortal strike warrior did 421k. But if you check the screenshot I posted earlier of Shade you'll see I did at least 500 dps more than him. But when he's fury specced he's usually a bit in front of me on meters.

 

shadowscion

do you feel the need to use aggro reducing trinkets and potions in these situations or not?

 

svagftw

I have never used a shrouding potion or a timelapse shard and even if I did, they're only like 1k threat. Useless.

 

Beatrice

So what do you feel is the best way to manage threat? That is far and away the biggest issue I've been having is that I always feel like my threat is heavilly limiting what I'm capable of. When we do something like Solarian, where I don't think twice about threat, I clearly perform much better.

I just haven't found an effective way to manage it recently. Any suggestions?

 

svagftw

Give your tanks windfury and battle shout, tell them to stack +blockvalue gear. At least that's what we're doing different from most guilds.