The special attack hit cap is an important number only because of how it affects the value of hit rating. If you have less than the required amount of hit rating to cap specials, then gaining one more point of hit rating affects both your white damage as well as your yellow damage. All of your damage benefits from it at this point. However, once you reach the special hit cap, gaining one more point of hit rating only affects your white damage. Because of this it becomes a very poor stat compared to other stats like strength and crit, which affect all of your damage, not just white damage. This doesn't mean that hit rating does absolutely nothing for your dps after you've capped specials, all it means is that once you reach that magic number, you should focus on boosting other stats that will provide a greater increase to your damage output than hit rating would.

I'm a dual glaive warrior and have gone 15/46/0 and 1H Fury.

Just curious as to what people are seeing as the optimum rotation.

Bloodthirst, WW, (instant slam), heroic strike. Something like that.

Yeah... now i just need an addon to watch for bloodsurge... keep missing it.

Most updated scrolling combat text addons already include a "Slam!" message when your Bloodthirst crits. I suppose you could change it to whatever font size you want so you don't miss it.

IMO Bloodsurge with two 1h weps is a poor value for 3 points.

Even if you time everything perfect and have like 50% crit, you are looking at 5 slams a minute. No bueno.

I am using the mod tellmewhen to put up an icon when bloodsurge procs, its easy to lose in sct sometimes.

"IMO Bloodsurge with two 1h weps is a poor value for 3 points." What are you putting those points into then? execute?

Hey Guys a little advice if you could please.

I have tried TG and got the following results with Just BS buff.




I have been speaking with a few warriors on there thoughts and a few questions remain unanswered.

Im thinking of going back to DW 1 handers and currently have both fists of brutality, he blade of infamy and 2 x dragonstrikes at my disposal. I was using the blade of infamy and the fist of brutality.

1 of the warriors i spoke to has gone heavy 53/8/0 with the glaives and gone swordspec. but he said he feels axe spec way over powers this now. So i was thinking of making the 2 wicked edges and trying them. But then i got to thinking +15% ignore armor of the mace spec must also be strong?

And then my illussions get swayed again when i see posts of 15/46 ?

Im a little torn here guys can you help?

I have been hearing a lot of (mis)information about how deep wounds lately. As far as I understand it used to simply reset the duration if you crit again with your deep wounds already on the target without doing anything to the damage of the ticks right? Right now there seems to be a lot of confusion about how it is currently working. I have heard that it rolls now and I have heard that it simply acts how ignite does currently.

Ex. 1 Rolling behavior indicates receiving above and beyond the additional 48% bleed damage from crits like:
(I am assuming DW ticks 3 times over 6 seconds)
Crit: 1000
DW: 160
DW: 160
Crit: 1000
DW: 320
DW: 320
Crit: 1000
DW: 480
DW: 480
Noncrit: 417
DW: 480
DW fades.

Total DW Expected: 1440
Actual DW Damage (assuming DW actually "rolls"): 2400

Ex. 2 What you would expect if DW is working like the current version of ignite:
Crit: 1000
DW: 160
DW: 160
Crit: 1000
DW: 213
DW: 213
Crit: 1000
DW: 231
DW: 231
Noncrit: 417
DW: 231

Expected Damage: 1440
Actual Damage: 1439

So basically I am curious as to whether DW is using the arguably bugged "rolling" behavior or if it is simply stacking as ignites currently do for mages (indicated in second example).

Purpose: To post some imperical data comparing zerker stance to battle stance.

Introduction: Two BT geared warriors giving some DPS data with particular rotations for other warriors to compare to. Most of the data I have seen posted is from fuly Sunwell geared raid buffed warriors. This post is intended to be used for further theory crafting.

Analysis
Warrior Test 1

Doogster
Spec: 53/8/0 - AP(unbuffed): 2106 - Hit: 169 - Crit: 40.86 (43.86 in zerker) - Expertise: 15

Battle stance
Rotation: Rend>MS>SD>OP>BS if nothing else slam
DPS 1833
*Included one BS use
**Did not include the use of recklessness


Zerker stance
Rotation priority to: MS>SD>BS>WW>Heroic strike
DPS1596
*Included one BS, recklessness, no slam

From this test it appears that making use of rend, OP, Slam in Battle stance is greater then the extra 3% crit in Zerker stance by 1833-1596=237DPS not factoring using recklessness.


Warrior Test 2
Nnev
Spec: 53/8/0 - AP(unbuffed): 2184 - Hit: 181 - Crit: 35.38 (38.38 in zerker) - Expertise: 15

Battle Stance
Rotation: Same as above
DPS1491


Zerker Stance
Rotation:Same as above
Image of Zerker Stance - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting1389

From this test it appears that making use of rend, OP, Slam in Battle stance is greater then the extra 3% crit in Zerker stance by 1491-1389=102DPS not factoring using recklessness.

Conclusion
1) DPSing in battle stance results in more DPS then in zerker stance.
2) Approximately 1% crit = 70.7DPS all things being equal as calculated below:

Doogster battle stance crit 40.86 - Nnev battle stance crit 35.38 = 5.48% crit
Doogster battle stance DPS 1833 - Nnev battle stance DPS 1491 = 342DPS
342DPS/5.48%crit = 62.41DPS

Doogster DPS in battle stance 1833 - Doogster DPS in Zerker Stance 1596 = 237
Difference in stances = 3% to crit
237DPS/3 = 79DPS

(79+62.4)/2 = 70.7DPS


3) Crit 40.48; when I take off red belt of battle 24crit with two +10 crit gems my crit reduces by 44crit rating to 38.86% for a difference of 2%.

44crit rating/2% crit
22crit = 1% to crit







***All data was gathered starting with no rage; Used bloodrage to pop Battle Shout then began rotation.
****I will update this post if/when Nnev gets the BOH Axe (unlikely going to happen).

The correct link is: WOW Meter Online - More logs!!!!!!

My question is that, if WOW Meter is correct, you're putting out 3433 TPS yet both your tanks are only at 2167/2029 TPS. How'd you manage that with no disc priests (pain supression) but 4 paladins (hand of salvation)? Was 4 hands really that much threat reduction?

Or were the tanks at like 3.5k - 4k TPS when tanking, but much less when not tanking and WOW Meter shows the average? 'cause now that I think about it, I can put out 2k TPS easily in ZA... A T6 tank with full raid buffs and Brut's infinate rage should easily double that xD

DW rolls perfectly fine using 2nd way - the reason why you see the 10k ticks on some WWS is totally different and not really applicable to mages.

a) DW tick every second not 2
b) Even then a warrior using all haste buffs and fast OH often crits MORE often then every second.
c) Every crit refreshes duration of deep wound
d) Crits more often then 1 sec apart cause deep wounds to not tick AT ALL, but "accumulate" damage in "DW buffer"
e) When you stop critting for moer then a sec the damage is "released"

Assuming you crit exactly 1.0 sec (or slightly more so DW ticks just before the next crit) apart with 1000 dmg MH range the ticks will be

0.0 CRIT (480 DW "buffer") ->DW tick of 80 (DW "buffer" down to 400)

1.0 CRIT (+480 DW "buffer"=880) ->DW tick of 147 (DW "buffer" down to 733)

2.0 CRIT (+480 DW "buffer"=1213) ->DW tick of 202 (DW "buffer" down to 1011)

....
....
....

(lets assume after 60 sec it comes to DW cap - in real math it never reaches it but its good enough approximation)

60.0 CRIT (+480 DW "buffer"=2880) ->DW tick of 480 (DW "buffer" down to 2400)
then it 'caps out' at 480/sec ticks

Thats exactly how ignite rolls, and its damage you can observe in some testing environment

However the huge ticks corm from different mechanism. Lets assume now the crits are still 1.0 sec apart but now its just 0.0001 sec BEFORE DW ticks


0.0 CRIT (480 DW "buffer") ->DW do NOT tick, because duration is refreshed

1.0 CRIT (960 DW "buffer") ->DW do NOT tick, because duration is refreshed

2.0 CRIT (1440 DW "buffer") ->DW do NOT tick, because duration is refreshed

...
...

60. CRIT(60x480=28800 DW "buffer") ->DW do NOT tick, because duration is refreshed

so far DW damage is ZERO. But if we stop attacking or stop critting that often, all the buffer is released THEN in 6 sec burst

61. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (24000 dmg remaining in buffer)
62. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (19200 dmg remaining in buffer)
63. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (14400 dmg remaining in buffer)
64. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (9600 dmg remaining in buffer)
65. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (4800 dmg remaining in buffer)
66. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (0 dmg remaining in buffer)

The damage from DW is about same if you add it up in 1st case remember they tick for 66 sec total in 2nd for 6. But the average tick damage will be 11 times higher in the 2nd - they will be just less spaced apart.

Notice how the DW recount/WWS with the huge ticks , have WAY less ticks then seconds in fight from 2.5-4 times less actually.

Ok then it isn't actually rolling it is just finally doing what the talent tooltip said it always should.

Similar things can be seen when chain critting while under extreme haste effects or using scorch as a mage.. At least they used to. Recently they seemed to have been ticking more regularly, regardless of me chain critting tho that could be due to reaching some sort of haste plateau or something.

Anyway what i wanted to know is if the huge ticks were a result of bugged ("rolling") behavior or simply the result of finally working like ignite does currently (minus ignites wierd issues with instant attacks) and it appears that it is just working they way it should and not causing any "extra" damage from DW the way true rolling does. I just got curious because everyone was using the term rolling and it seems no one actually understands exactly what rolling implies, I.E. pre-bc fire mages in naxx getting more than the listed extra damage on crits from ignite. A better terms for DW's current behavior would be stacking.

That really doesn't prove anything other than that a rotation with Heroic Strike isn't as good for 1x2H as a rotation with Slam would be. In the future, to do a proper empirical test you need better controls set up. You want to change as few variables as possible. In this case, just replace rend + OP with WW. If you want to try alternate zerker rotations with HS instead of slam, you can then compare it to your control to illustrate if it improves or drops performance. Similarly, if you want to see if it is worthwhile to stance dance to zerker after an execute, use recklessness, do a short rotation then dance back once your rage is low enough, that would be another test case.

That said, I'm not sure this is much of a concern, and pretty sure it has been explored in other threads. Still, if you do want to re-examine something yourself, that's cool. Just try to do it a bit more scientifically if you want the results to be relevant to the rest of us. As a final note, it is useful to post the expanded dps percentages with recount (click your name) instead of just a flat number.

With such emphasis on hit with TG how does expertise look? While putting together my TG set I came up with [Brooch of Deftness] beating out all but Endless Nightmares and Hard Khorium for that slot. Expertise should be just as valuable as hit should it not?

They are similar and the best until capped, yes.

Hmm, I think after reading this I might just go to the old build instead of this arms crap. I just really don't like the fact I have to stay in battle stance. How come you decided to use fast weapon over slow?

I'm going to be perfectly honest and just say that I assumed it would increase my chances of getting a critical hit in before the first tick of deep wounds would go off, which is 2 seconds after the critical hit lands.
I sure wish I was a mathematician to help you out, but it just felt like it made sense

I don't have any numbers or anything to back it up and I don't have any WWS logs to really go by, so I can't really compare SLOW/SLOW to SLOW/FAST personally and I'm sorry about that. The idea behind it was purely to prolong the chances of that first deep wounds tick going off and sneaking in a few Heroic Strike, Bloodthirst or Whirlwind crits before the first deep wound would tick.

After next weeks reset I'm going to record more logs and try to compare my melee hits landing and their crit chances and see the difference using a Slow/Slow combo. But I'm sure someone can answer your question much better than I can with Super hard maths!

That's correct, WOW Meter shows the average TPS and since they switch tanking, their average TPS is way lower than if they were tanking full time.

Katiecakes, that's a pretty nice spec you got there. I tried out full fury, deep wounds fury, incite fury, but never mixed deep wounds with incite and rest fury. Quite a nice idea.

While I dont have math at hand, I dont even think its needed in order to tell you that you're correct on your assumtion that having a fast off hand will grant you more crits between the 2 seconds before DW ticks. Hell, it would be interesting to see how two fast weapons behave with DW, although the added damage to DW might not make it worth it in the end, it would still be interesting to see. Next time I run BT I'll test it out with Kalecgos' sword and Swiftsteel Bludgeon (1.5 speed weapons with haste into them ftw) with your spec to see what type of dps I get. Would be kinda sketch of me to be "trying" stuff when working on Kil'jaedan hehe.

That spec of yours with dual warglaives should be insanely good tho, so if someone has both glaives, might be a good idea to try it out. With the ammount of haste you can generate (specially if you have a DST) and that insanely fast offhand, those DW should be pilling up like crazy.

Regardless, I bet that the best spec most likely is 53/8 (if not 53/0/8 for incite) with two (I dare say) fast one handed axes and just go to town with heroic strikes and executes and make those DW tick like crazy. If someone has access to 2 S3 or S4 one handed axes, the fast ones, and can do some tests on that, it would be great, even if most people wont be able to play along with such a spec since the only fast one handed axe that comes to mind is The Brutalizer... lol and its a tad late to actually farm those axes in arenas right now. Maybe at level 80. 53/10/8 DWing fast axes and execute/heroic strike spam would be quite interesting to check out.

As I see it Heroic Strike and Sudden Death Executes are rage dumps. And you will use one or the other, not both. In a bad streak of lack of sudden death procs Im using a few heroic strikes but honestly it doesnt happen much. When it gets changed to chance on hit probably HS will be more used but still HS and Execute go against each other as rage dumps. We'll never get rage for use MS,WW,Execute and HS. because execute sends your rage back to 10 and HS prevents the MH from generating rage. And HS is the worse of those 4 attacks, so it should be skipped.

About MH speed a fast one has various drawbacks. Lower deep wounds base damage, lower MS and WW damage, Sudden death procs with lesst than 1.5 sec difference are slightly wasted. I'm not sure a few more sudden death procs and more crits to stack Deep Wounds offset the drawbacks.
Old philosophy of slow MH for higher damage specials and now higher deep wounds base damage and fast OH for more hit procs and crits is the way that makes sense.

i was asking about that spec a few pages back. On our first KJ kill yesterday i was using a traditional Deep Wounds / Bloodthirst, Bloodsurge no TG spec with Glaives and was averaging 3000-3400 dps with haste breaths etc (Hard to validate, will post a wws later) I'll go back with DW, Incite and 3/5 IBS on Tuesday and give it a whirl. For the record i was getting 8k Deep wounds ticks. Woah.