well between the nerf to DW and that it would severly gut the spec. Right now Executes are ~40% of my dmg and DW are 35% (well maybe 35/35 is more common). I would say assuming they fix OH/Execute DW bug in beta right now, DW damage would go down to at most 20%. Executes would go to 9% from ~21% on hit, however i would switch to a fast/fast setup giving me ~20% more chances (including unchanged OH/specials). So overall its easily 30% nerf to the build with a very rough math. It STILL seems somewhat competitive to TG tbh, but i believe it will fall behind.
I really hope they go back to a better SD and nerf DW arms in other ways. Its better simply because it SCALES with multiple stats, unlike 2h arms. Also some talents make little sense. Blood Frenzy is insanely good talent for Dual wield builds - 6% haste for 2 talents is huge (close to flurry), and 4 % damage on top. And thats for build that actually procs off autoattacks so 6% haste = ~6% more damage. At same time BF doesnt give any significant buff to 2h arms.
Well apparently GC says that going from 30% crit down to 9% hit leads to more RNG so they're considering other options. The other option was 50 rage Execute cap, and I'm wondering how that would affect it in the long run. Since I've never tried this spec before, I don't know how the rage generation is with DW. I guess the big question is, how would capped 50 rage Executes affect our use of rage, and hence, dps (assuming they do end up using 50 rage caps).
You read it wrong. LotP most definitely is raid-wide.
Leader of the Pack
While in Cat, Bear or Dire Bear Form, the Leader of the Pack increases ranged and melee critical chance of all party members within 45 yards by 5%. Leader of the Pack - Spell - World of Warcraft
Rampage Rank 1
Your melee critical hits cause you to go on a rampage, increasing ranged and melee critical hit chance of all party and raid members within 45 yds by 5%. Lasts 10 sec. Rampage - Spell - World of Warcraft
Leader of the Pack
While in Cat, Bear or Dire Bear Form, the Leader of the Pack increases ranged and melee critical chance of all party members within 45 yards by 5%. Leader of the Pack - Spell - World of Warcraft
Rampage Rank 1
Your melee critical hits cause you to go on a rampage, increasing ranged and melee critical hit chance of all party and raid members within 45 yds by 5%. Lasts 10 sec. Rampage - Spell - World of Warcraft
My question is, between the whole LotP and Rampage thing, unless I've lost my marbles why not accept both? As far as I know they aren't supposed to stack, but unless its a bug and is going to be fixed, just the other night I am fairly certain they stacked. I was sitting around 36% crit before entering combat, noticing LotP on me. After entering combat and rampaging I was at 41%. Maybe something else came in to play but I couldn't imagine what.
That makes more sense to me, thanks for clearing that up. I hadn't thought about the totems and crusader.
After adding up all the buffs to my base I see that they couldn't be stacking and I probably just didn't notice them before.
It's a Rogue Vs Fury Warrior comparison however it directly relates to the Future of a DPS Warrior, which just happens to be the title of this thread. Let me know what you think.
On a very short fight sure- the "lost ticks" after mob dies can kill your dps, but after like 4 min fight it really doesnt matter if it lasts 4 or 40 minutes.
This is not true about instantaneous DPS. Recount measures average DPS, not instantaneous DPS. The longer the fight, the higher your instantaneous DPS keeps getting. Each time your bleed ticks, your instantaneous DPS goes from (avg dps) to (avg dps + bleed damage). If you were looking at a graph of your total damage over the span of time, it would look like an upward hill with cliffs corresponding to bleed ticks. If looking at instantaneous dps would look like a flat line with spikes. If you were looking at avg dps, it would look like a staircase thats slanted downward , but eventually gets higher.
If you make a simple program of this nature (you could even do it on a graphing calculator)
For this program I got 3649 DPS for time 4 minutes and 7642 dps at time 27.58 minutes.
On the 4 vs 40 minutes example, if you were always on the boss, and wounds never fell off, why would the average DPS be the same could you enlighten me that time wouldn't matter? Please don't say that every crit does 48% WepDamage. I know that. Also, the shorter the fight the more dps you get from execute and heroism (comparing 2 minutes to 4 or 6 minutes), however if you lengthen the fight to a certain degree the deep wounds start to overshadow that by a lot.
Oh and BTW, you can't assume I will always claim things you expect.
Was that a typo or did you actually program it that way? Because your conclusions are correct with the program, but that should be (damage + count2 * tick) -> damage, which will result in a linear aDPS.
If you multiply ticks by the total amount of time you've spent doing DPS, then of course your going to do more DPS the longer you're attacking. But that's not exactly how Deep Wounds works.
DPS records are very superficial now with the way DWounds works. The longer the fight is, the more DPS you will do. You could pull off probably > 6000 dps if you were the only one DPSing simply because the deep wounds keep getting higher since the probability of not critting for 6 seconds approaches 0. If you have fast kills, then you cannot really reach those numbers because your DWounds do not reach the full effect of throttling your DPS value.
The way you worded it clearly suggests to me you meant a total dps over fight. Instantaneous DPS (as in dps measured between lets say time t and t+1 as opposed to the full interval from 0,t), indeed can grow expotentially. In fact as probability teaches us given infinite time at some 1 sec interval it can approach any positive value.
However thats not what your quote said. If you talk about total dps for the fight as in Total_Damage/Total_Fight_Length , then nope, it wont get much higher after certain fight length is met.
Ill approach it more from mathematical point of view.
A) Deep Wounds dont affect anything in your warrior dps cycle. They dont generate rage, they dont generate flurry uptime etc. Therefore a modelling program can completely ignore them in 1st stage. You can make a model just showing you all non-DW damage in the fight and modelling your attacks rage generation etc. Its more or less the same as before 3.0 (+ BS procs + more execute damage but those are details).
Obviously such non-DW dps wont change over time save for some natural fluctuations. We can name the result as a constant nDPS.
B) Now using model from A) we can make a function F(t) That will return us number of crits happening in that period of time. F(t)=t*const. Its a linear function since on average your crit rate will remain constant over the fight.
c) We can now insititue function D(t) showing maximum possible deep wound damage over time t. Maximum means no lost ticks because mob died or because they never had chance to tick. In fact the damage from deep wounds will be less then that in majority of the cases - as some ticks wont "go off yet" and you always end the fight with some Deep Wound damage lost. D(t) however will be showing us simply D(t)=F(t)*0.48%*MH_Weap_Dmg. Deep Wound damage will never exceed that.
Total dps would be DPS < nDPS + D(t)/t = nDPS +F(t)/t * 48%*MH_Weap_Dmg= nDPS+const*48%+MH_Weap_Dmg.
There is no variables in the right side of the equation.
nDPS = oldschool dps ignoring Deep Wounds
const = some constant dependant on your crit rate/speed of weapons
MH_Weap_Dmg = main hand weap damage.
Therefore your in-fight dps will always be lower then some constant value, and therefore capped.
Was that a typo or did you actually program it that way? Because your conclusions are correct with the program, but that should be (damage + count2 * tick) -> damage, which will result in a linear aDPS.
If you multiply ticks by the total amount of time you've spent doing DPS, then of course your going to do more DPS the longer you're attacking. But that's not exactly how Deep Wounds works.
(count2) is the average time between bleed ticks. (count1) is the time elapsed. I guess I was incorrect about every (count2) seconds a tick of size (count1)*(tick) would occur. I was not taking into consideration the amount of wounds that was exiting the buffer. I'll try it again.
I couldn't setup the math properly to prove my point or contradict Shha's but it's nice to see people are still around to backup whatever. So to kind of try different flavoring I was trying out DW arms stuff and have some questions:
What does Sword Specialization (Execute) mean? I got a couple sword spec execute crits. Does that mean double execute crits?
I was hitting a 70 dummy for a while and I basically got everything to show up as a sword spec attack. Executes, deep wounds, main hand, offhand, whirlwind, heroic strike, all showed up in some variety. Here's a pic. This is in live.
Also,
I was running my glaive PvP build and doing well when all of a sudden also I thought about Axe/Mace. Maybe Brutal axe / OH brutal mace for double dipping in the weapon specs would be the most overpowered currently. From what I tested on beta if you had mace spec and even if your mace was in the offhand you could benefit fully from the armor ignore, while gaining all MH and special crit increase from Axe spec. When I tried sword spec in the offhand, it would only produce offhand extra attacks.
Leader of the Pack
While in Cat, Bear or Dire Bear Form, the Leader of the Pack increases ranged and melee critical chance of all party members within 45 yards by 5%. Leader of the Pack - Spell - World of Warcraft
Rampage Rank 1
Your melee critical hits cause you to go on a rampage, increasing ranged and melee critical hit chance of all party and raid members within 45 yds by 5%. Lasts 10 sec. Rampage - Spell - World of Warcraft
What's up with that?
You can simple test it yourself and see that its a typo. Stick a feral druid in the raid not in your group and you will get the buff.....
about deep wounds, the dps doesnt go up over the fight.
deep wounds does a set amount of damage each time you crit, and this damage doesnt go up over time.
what may happen though is that through repeated crits before deep wound can tick, you push back some deep wound damage, causing big deep wound ticks when you stop critting, and it gets a chance to tick.
you are simply pushing back some damage wich you get from crits now to come in later. thus when you crit and push back deep wounds damage, you are actually lowering your dps, wich will then go back up to what it should be when deep wounds can tick.
your dps will not get any higher over a longer fight. BUT if you manage to have enough crit and haste to keep pushing back deep wounds, so it doesnt tick, the longer the fight, the higher deep wound tick you can get.
higher deep wounds ticks just mean you are getting all the damage from a number of crits over time at once.
so striving towards big deep wounds ticks will not get you higher dps. its still nice to see huge bleed ticks though, obv
and haste and crit are obv still good, but not because your getting bigger deep wounds ticks. simply because you are critting more often, and deep wounds gets you a very nice amount of bonus damage per crit.
My question is, between the whole LotP and Rampage thing, unless I've lost my marbles why not accept both? As far as I know they aren't supposed to stack, but unless its a bug and is going to be fixed, just the other night I am fairly certain they stacked. I was sitting around 36% crit before entering combat, noticing LotP on me. After entering combat and rampaging I was at 41%. Maybe something else came in to play but I couldn't imagine what.
Did you, perchance, have a mongoose enchant that might've procced? Also, I'm not entirely sure how Rampage and LotP "stack" but in cases where two buffs provide different added effects (say, vigilance + blessing of sanctuary on the same person), you'll get both buffs, but the DR won't stack: you'll have 3% DR, 10% threat redirection, and rage/mana recovery procs.
Originally Posted by landsoul
What does Sword Specialization (Execute) mean? I got a couple sword spec execute crits. Does that mean double execute crits?
Sword spec procs off weapon swings. That header under Recount means that the swing that generated the proc was an execute.
We've been spending a lot of time working out exactly how and why Dual-Wielding has been so beneficial to the new Deep Wounds (DW) talent. What I'm not sure of (and would love for someone to clarify or test) is how the buff checks the damage output it should have when it refreshes.
For those of you that have played Resto Druids, you may remember when Lifebloom (LB) rolling depended only on the +healing you had when you started rolling LBs. The strategy, then, became to start a LB stack and then switch to a set of weapons with higher mana regen, but lower +healing.
I wonder if, when DW refreshes, it's actually checking the damage of your Main Hand weapon or is instead just adding a counter to the stack. The reason I ask is that it may actually be damage-efficient to crit with a giant mainhand, then (very quickly) switch to two 1.3 speed daggers and just go nuts. If you have enough crit and haste to then keep the original debuff rolling, you could do some silly things with that bleed effect.
All it does is when you crit with the equipped weapon, it puts all of the damage that the crit would have done into a buffer, it does not care after the fact.
10/30/08, 6:52 PM
