Opta

I read most of this thread for the last month or so. I am trying to get back up to speed.
I released i got two question.
I armored several peoples and I see quite a few doing 53/8/0 or 52/9/0 dual wielding two 1H and no point in 2H spec and i am trying to understand why.
How does this compare to a 16/45/0 build, is it that good?

What is the probability upcoming nerf/fix/change to Deep Wound with slow MH/fast OF on PTR? Has the change already been made to lower the dps of this setup? Is it worth enchanting Swiftsteel Bludgeon to try out with a dragon strike?

(Sorry this wasn't really clear; I had to split this in two groups of question)

 

ZeTodu

There were several bugs with Deep Wounds. We believe we have those all fixed now so we need to observe the changes for a bit before we decide if any further changes are warranted.

Ghostcrawler
Blizzard Poster

Is there a new build? And for what kind of fix he is talking about?

 

DarkS

Someone knows if the build deployed in USA servers at this moment have the Deep Wound that ignores ranks 2 and 3? I think that is the build 9183. I'm not sure if this one was the build tested in PTR as 3.0.3 or not.

 

Shha

Wrong topic for this reply. Please remove.

 

Shha

9155 i think was last beta one.

 

Greysir

Sorry if this was posted somewhere, but I tried using search and also going back several pages on the relevant warrior threads and couldn't find specifics (nor is it in the patch notes). What is the deep wounds nerf that is going into effect? Some folks were theorizing about how to reduce the slow/fast setups with deep wounds, but I could not find anything concrete about what Blizzard was planning..

 

Shha

What was planned:

OH crits cause OH deep wounds based on OH weapon damage

What ended happening

OH crits cause OH deep wounds based on OH weapon damage, but only as if you have rank 1 of the talent (rank 2 and 3 didnt change anything).

What we DONT KNOW if was planned

Crits with special abilities not using equipped weapon damage (Shield Slam, Execute, Bloodthirst) changed to use the "artificial weapon damage" attached to the skill - aka very very small values.

I dont believe its what Blizzard planned, but thats what was in 9155

Patch build is later it might be fixed on both aspects.

 

• Darkmyst

Apparently 3.03 is going live this morning.

Is that a typo on the TG change? I'd heard it was only going to 12%

 

Bungie

No, it is definitely only a 5% hit penalty now.

 

DarkS

Definitely no one understood Ghostcrawler's explanations...

 

Smooglab

What's going to happen with the miss rate on white hits with the 3.0.3 TG?
Will it stay 15% extra miss or go down to 0% miss (ignoring the base miss chance ofcourse)?

The tooltip basically implies that there will be no extra miss rate on white hits, but I find that rather hard to believe.

Also those patch notes are quite contradictive with what's been written here:
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Sudden Death not getting nerfed?

Terrified. Mortified. Petrified. Stupefied... by you!

 

Dots

Dual wielding always adds 15% miss chance for white attacks, no changes here. Doesn't matter if you are using 1h or 2h with TG.

 

• landsoul

So many really obvious and stupid questions are being asked, and on top of that they are getting answered. Why? Please people just report them and don't answer the question. If someone can't figure out what the first hit cap is then they shouldn't really have the privelidge to ask. The tooltip clearly says abilities, which means not white damage. And also, this information on hit cap is found on wowwiki, the first page of the DPS warrior compendium thread, and various places around the internet.

I don't want to be a jackass, but this is not really the place to ask and answer basic questions.



-Mod edit-
I am Kaubel and I approve this message.

 

Opta

Smooglab, your link is 2 week old…
That’s the info from mmo for Build 9183 (Patch 3.0.3)
Wrath of the Lich King - Warrior - Arms Talents
Wrath of the Lich King - Warrior - Fury Talents

"Sudden Death: Now has 3/6/9% chance on hit instead of 10/20/30% chance on crit."

Is that change significant enough where it would it make sense to spec sword instead axe for a Dual Wielding Arm build assuming you don't have warglaive, (is mace even worth a try with this build?) and stack more hit? 5% extra hit = Increase rage generation would mean more SD proc and more rage on each dump. This is probably requires some testing to figure out SD PPM with and without sword spec. i have like 4 talent build i need to try. i'll start with mace to avoid changing weaponsmithing.

Axe spec seems to be really OP atm, I am sure orcs are going nuts with this...

 

Thikkor

And it seems that the extra attack that was produced from the Sword Spec proc, was also an Execute. If you look at Landsoul's screen shot back in page 167, the Execute (Sword Specialization) dealt 35,164dmg in 9 hits. That's an average of around 3,900dmg per hit (with the max crit being 6,707). No regular melee attack can do that amount of damage, specially with a one handed.

It would appear so that the extra attack is a copy of the previous attack which triggered the Sword Spec proc, instead of getting a white attack. Had no idea of it working like that, is that intended?


Opta:

53/8/0 and 52/9/0 were focused on a lot of fast attacks (with your offhand mostly of course), getting Sudden Death to proc, and doing a lot of executes throughout the fight. It was better than 15/46/0 spec for the most part, if you managed to control your threat (10% less threat than 15/46/0 cause of imp berserker stance proved problematic for me, personally).

As to what's better now, we have to wait and see how both specs react to the DW nerf, not to mention the Sudden Death change too. Arms got more nerfed than fury since two of the main reasons it was doing so much damage were nerfed, while fury got hit really bad from DWs, but BT got buffed... I suppose... and fury doesn't suffer from the change in Sudden Death. Plus, Titan's Grip got a decent buff from BT and the lesser hit penalty, allowing more crit/haste/str to be equipped. I'll do some testing tonight at raid on different specs.

 

• landsoul

With my glaives my spreadsheet says I get roughly 2 hits per second with a 53/8 spec with sword spec. This means that every second I have an 18% chance to light up an execute. That means I can hit sudden death on average about once every 5-6 seconds. Let's compare.

Hits per second: ~2
Crits per second: ~1.2

Old patch: 30% on crit:
execute every 2.77 (1/(1.2*.3)) seconds.

New patch: 9% on hit:
execute every 5.55 (1/(2*.09) seconds.

That's a pretty huge hit. Forgoing a glaive build, try to push up my hits per second up to 2.5 using very fast weapons and hit rating seemed kind of wash to me as it would really destroy the rest of my damage. It only pushed my time between executes down to 4. I think the spam-execute days may be over sadly. Even if you had max hit rating and the fastest weapons possible, you would not be able to get to the point of being able to hit execute as often as before, really making the build pointless compared to others.

When looking at a perspective without glaives, my speculation became this: GO TG. even when I ran glaive fury vs TG Fury in my spreadsheet, TG came out a little ahead.

2/51/8 Cookie TG ~3700
15/46 Warglaives old style Fury ~3600

Best stats to get with TG: ArP/STR > Crit > Haste. STR diverges from crit as gear goes up.
Enchants: dbl executioner. Really. Mongoose is crap without wounds. Even on a low armor boss mongoose was only 3dps ahead of execution in the offhand. DBL executioner is also better for levelling than Executioner/mongoose.
Trinkets: Shard> Naaru > Madness/DST (based on armor) > Tsunami > B's Call

Just my 2c

 

• landsoul

Ghost changes for live:
offhand deep wounds is always using rank 1.
offhand whirlwind crit can now cause deep wounds.
offhand whirlwind crit can now cause Rampage.

 

outcast

Landsoul, how do your previous findings change if you incorporate the new buggy Deep Wounds? What weapons did you assume for the TG numbers?

I presume I will try 15/46 for our last TBC raid on Thursday this week and gem back to a more balanced Str/Crit (enjoyed 53/8 since 3.0.2). If you people here do some raids tomorrow, I'd be real interested to see how you perform and with what spec/gear you did it. Thanks in advance!

 

• landsoul

No, my comment takes into account non-buggy deep wounds. The glaive build would put out a little less with buggy wounds.

 

Shha

Your spreadsheet really seems to overvalue ArP. Even with this in mind though it shows double mongoose ahead of executioner for me though. Makes sense though, since Executioner was only SLIGHTLY ahead of mongoose pre-3.0, and now:

- Agility gives slightly more crit
- Armor Penetration from executioner is worth less since armor of mobs is higher, and because any ArP on your gear reduces its value.

 

SSLanfear

Any numbers after latest patch? Seem TG is > then deep wounds after this patch either due to bugs or fixes. At least for solo unbuffed i was getting higher numbers right now with TG 0/53/8.

 

• landsoul

- Armor Penetration from executioner is worth less since armor of mobs is higher, and because any ArP on your gear reduces its value.

What? no. ArP gets better the more you have, still. If you modify the value of armor penetration, it also modifies the value of agility, strength, or whatever the hell. What you are saying is like saying haste is the best stat cause it scales with windfury better, and haste is one of the worst ones.

Are you using TG shaa? its showing dbl executioner for me a lot better on high armor boss (and thusly leveling) and only a little behind like 10 dps with dbl mongoose off on low. Can you upload your setup so I can look at it?

 

xavier2k3

Is the boss armor buff not just in WoTLK rather than now? Thus double mongoose at this point in time may well be more beneficial?

 

Mongerthod

Well I talked with several other dps warriors on my server last night and we compared dmg meters. I stayed old 15/46 spec and pulled 3600 on brut vs 3980 the week before (still beating out non glaive rogues). TG warriors with incite were pulling 3200-3400 range from what I understand. So I'll probably stay 15/46 spec.

 

Kaan

@landsoul:

It can't be that dual Exec. now is that good. Pre ArP-Nerf/Change and with CoR and Expose Armor (~1250 -Armor more), Exec was worse on Offhand. Now Agility got buffed and -Armor is a lot worser than before, because CoR/ EA is missing and the stat itself got nerfed.
More realistic would be, that Exec is on top on mainhand, and Mongoose easily the best offhand Enchant on any Bosses. I don't have any numerical proofs but your own sheet in an early Beta status showed itself Exec/Mungo being the best enchants for TG, and Exec only with a small margin on high armor bosses compared to Mongoose. I think it's like Shha said: Dual Mongoose is nearly as good as Exec/Mongoose and easily better than dual Exec.

Edit: I could imagine that Mongoose would lose value because of the high crit we have raidbuffed now. But this isn't enough to overcome the above statement. Pre 3.0.2 Dual Exec was worse than Exec/Mongoose, with -1300 Armor, CoR, FF, EA. Now with nerfed ArP and less -Armor debuffs it is better? Makes little sense to me.