Shha

My setup is on the armory atm. I sometimes use bladed chaos tunic+pauldrons of berserking as switches.
Btw, it's SHHA not SHAA .

I have real problem with your spreadsheet. ArP stat really seem extremely high, and I cant really nail down the problem. ArP in general seems way too good in it. I understand TG doesnt have deep wounds, but neither did pre-3.0 warrior dps.

1700 ArP before patch was about enough to reduce 6200-boss armor to zero (imp expose, FF, Reck)
Thats going from 86.13% damage to 100% damage. = 16.1% increase.

Now 1700 old ArP = 1700/51.4 = 33%.

6200 boss is usually around 3k armor now. Armor Pen puts it at 2k.

Thats going from 77.87% reduction to 84.07% aka 8% increase.


Armor Pen value is halved.

Now pre-3.0 my Sep Values were around

1 STR
0.63 AGI
0.9 CRIT
0.85 HASTE
1.4 ArP.

I understand ArP value might have changed independently due to a bit different mechanics of TG. But honestly, 1.4/2 = 0.7. Its just hard to believe it really ends up higher then str in your sheet. Somewhat TG mechanics made ArP twice as effective? And in situation when there is LESS buffs to AP, so STR should be actually worth more?

It doesnt look THAT bad for higher armor bosses, but still the fact that basically ArP is often MORE of a "king of stats" now in your spreadsheet is disturbing. No matter what other stats are there, basically ArP items seem to always pull ahead.

 

Mezzlock

Noticed that the tooltip for rend shows it dealing less dmg if you're hasted. Haven't seen if it really ticks for less or if it's just a tooltip bug. Can anyone confirm?

www.in-excelsis.net

 

Daronsk

I'm definetly with Shha on this one, and I've done a bit of the math to prove it to myself.

(Math)
Lets take for the sake of comparison a level 70 boss with low armor (6200). Under the new system the total debuffed armor from raid buffs that boss will be is 2150 (w/ executioner proc).

Now using the armor reduction reduction formula.... % mitigation = x / [x + 10557.5]
I calculated the following mitigation percents for the new system.
2150 armor = 16.92%
+50 ArP rating
2004.73 armor = 15.96%
+100 ArP rating
1859.46 armor = 14.98%
+150 ArP rating
1714.19 armor = 13.97%

From this we can see that the gains from 50 arp rating sequentially are... .96%, .98%, and 1.01%. This proves that ArP is still a scaling stat in that the more we stack the better it is. However, this scaling as we know has been drastically cut back. The second derivite gains are nearly even in this system. Now lets compare that to the old system under the same conditions.
2150 armor = 16.92%
+350 ArP
1800 armor = 14.57%
+700 ArP
1450 armor = 12.08%
+1050 ArP
1100 armor = 9.44%

Our sequential gains are... 2.35%, 2.49%, 2.64%. So not only is Shha right in his ballpark estimate hes underestimating the devaluing of this stat in the low armor range as its closer to 40% of its original value.
(/math)

Now my calculations with higher armor values show the same trend but in a less drastic fashion as ArP is less effective as a whole with high armor values. However, the old system still rains supreme in all cases. (see 3.0 Dps warrior spreadsheet for my full posting of this). So I played around with Landsoul's speadsheet like he suggested by first plugging in the highest dps set for TG I could fit then adding ArP vs strength. I did this on a high armor value and ArP smoked strength (the set had around 2650 unbuffed ap and 33% ArP). This just seems off to me, and while I've actually convinced myself that ArP is not a horrible stat, I'm almost certain that its not the best stat.

 

Alexplayswow

based on these findings, in your opinion, what would be the best stat we warriors should go for?

 

• landsoul

The concept you are not seeing is that if you lower the power of ArP which is what happened in 3.0, this means that every other stat you have will also do less damage. They do not do the same damage. For example, if before 3.0 20 ArP got 28 dps and 20 STR got 20 dps, after 3.0 that same 20 str will do less than 20 dps, because of how the new calculations for armor penetration works. Also, we do much more base damage in general, and ArP is a percentage scaling based stat. Instead of doing 2k damage in general we are doing 3k+. The percentage gains are more for 3k than they are for 2k. Armor penetration effectiveness is not reduced by half when you look at the big picture. You have to consider everything when you compare both pre 3.0 and post 3.0 and quite frankly you both aren't.. You can't think of it that way because that's not how simple it is. Warrior dps is much much more multidimensional. If I did not know this, I wouldn't be backing myself up so frivilously. I will continue to do so as long as you keep posting these incomplete mathematical representations.

 

Glory

I Read the last 2 Pages about TG vs old Cookie Cuter, what about Arms?

I did 3250 DPS on Brut with Blade of Harbringers (Axe Spec) and 2 SW T6 Rest was BT/Badge Gear. Focusing on Crit and having Mungoose. I got infight 55-60% Crit in Battle Stance. Had 6 Agi on EoS Feet then, now got T6 Feet with Surefooted. Cant remember how good Raidbuffs were.

Could i do more DPS with Cats & BoH with TG Spec, i got enough Items to get Hit over 200. (381 without Sockets if i Want, but loosing lots of Crit/Expertise)
Or Cookie Cuter with Slow/Slow?

We had Cookie Cuter with us who had 2800 DPS a bit less gear but not much, i was First on the meters, CC and other Arms were about the Same and shared 2nd and 3rd.

 

Daronsk

Thats very true and is more or less what I have been looking for. However, I wouldn't say that my math is incomplete in the sense that it accomplishes what I set out to prove. That comparing the old ArP system to the new ArP system, the old system is vastly better. This isn't to say that ArP isin't the best stat or the worst stat, but simply shows that if blizzard haden't changed the system that the warriors would benefit much more from flat static armor reductions. Of course this rule of thumb we all knew from the start and all the math proves is how much worse it is.

The implications of this lead me to believe that ArP may be sufficiently weakend as a stat to consider 1) not gemming around it, and 2) Gearing away from it. This is where your big picture comes into play as we have to consider all the stats and comparing them to each other. I have not looked at the gains the other stats give but I suspect you may be right in this regards. Take stength for example...
str -> adds a flat damage increase to white damage, and a damage increase as the ap gained effects your effective weapon damage. What scales with this stat is rage gain.

What we come down to at this point is we know that ArP still scales, but scales far less fast. It would be interesting at this to see now an arguement that either the other stats do not scale(as I've more or less reasoned out with strength) or that they scale slower then ArP.

[All comments in regards to TG @ 70]

 

Shha

You are a bit deluded here though Landsoul.
Ive proven above that just % gain from ArP is lower now. Lets see about STR now.

Bloodthirst dps - STR went UP in effectiveness since average ap went down (from not stacking str scrolls, might and shouts etc)
"weapon damage dps" Again our weapon based dps went down while str adds a static amount there. Our higher dps comes from higher crit ratings, and similiar effects. Damage of swings is about same or lower - so str is MORE effective here % wise.
Execute dps - again STR now affects dps of executes more directly.

In short - same amount of str gives MORE of a PERCENTAGE based dps boost. Same amount of ArP gives LESS of a PERCENTAGE based dps boost. So str should be a lot better then ArP.

And now the best part is. I watched how much my dps changed based on items , and sort of blindly assumed the "SEP" values posted above are right - since like I said ArP items seem to end up much higher for me. However now i run more and more tests on spreadsheet and came to a conclusion:

a) SEPs posted above are "bogus" for my stats. STR for me is almost 50% more powerful then ArP - so it seems its correct here.

b) The low value of the non-arp items comes from low value of hit and haste - not the high value of ArP. Apparently hit and haste lost a lot of value from pre-3.0 (even though they werent that high in first place). I can understand that hit past the 14% cap is worth less - higher rage generation gives us heroic on really every swing+ more contribution of instants. Haste is the same - more contribution of instants is one thing - but more importantly the best TG weapons are currently giving a lot of haste themselves. Not trying for haste at all im closing to 400 in that regard.

Thats more "acceptable". In fact STR is so high ahead of our other stats for me, nothing else (crit included) comes close - at least until deep wounds/impale makes it back into the play.

My SEP values

STR = 1.0
ArP = 0.65
Crit = 0.75
Hit = 0.2 - yes THAT low (Obviously after cap)
Haste - 0.5

Its simply because of overinflated rage generation imo. Hit and Haste were our large contributors to rage generation. So was crit. With TG it seems we are basically doomed to be rage capped in the long run, and rage just stopped to be a factor (even doing heroics every swing). I made math already in wotlk preview thread showing that with average stats at 80, OH alone will be enough to fuel Heroics on every MH swing + every instant, with 50% rage overflow. That is with full epic gear etc.

Thats why rage generating stats lost so much appeal with TG, and only ones left are ArP/Str. Since we lack impale/DW , crit is low for the time being , although it will catch up to other 2 come 80.

 

Sydar

Does anyone have a "ballpark" amount of stats to go for with Titan's Grip? I don't have a lot of the gear you guys are running with but know I could certainly do much better with what I have:

Armory

Given the conversations here, I'm still not all that clear what stats I should focus most on. Any constructive tips would be appreciated.

 

• landsoul

It appears you guys are talking about low armor bosses while I am talking about high armor bosses. They are indeed quite different. Our arguments are futile because we're not all talking about the same thing, myself, Shha and Daronsk. You are definitely correct that STR is much more powerful than ArP for a low armor boss.

My perspective is coming from the fact that we're going to be leveling in 8 days and that there won't be any armor debuffs on mostly anything we are trying to kill until raids. It doesn't make sense to continue to gear for low armor bosses because they are not progression related. You are going to be spending dozens of hours whacking on stuff thats going to have increasingly more and more armor. Not to mention at 80 comes the return of high armor bosses, in a sense that they increased all armor of bosses in beta by 10% to help level the physical to caster DPS curves. Would you argue that STR will be better than ArP on a boss with 12k armor?

edit: actually, ArP shines over strength while levelling, however on a 12k armor boss @80 and @80 talents I didn't see ArP performing very well versus strength, possibly more due to the introduction of bleeds.

 

Frewt

I've been lurking here for around a year now, and I must say, you guys do deliver.

However I've taken an extra interest in the Cookie Cutter spec, DW-rest fury, or the so called "lower Cookie Cutter" spec, where you get 8 points in prot, 15 in arms and rest in fury. I have to say this spec really do deliver, not as high as 2hander spec does for trash, but on most boss-fights it really does. However I went with a PuG today, to Hyjal Summit. I instantly noticed that DW is somewhat changed, it does far less dmg. I'm having problems stacking it to 3k, while I post 3.03 I with little ease managed to pull it up to 5k per tick. I see a significant loss in DPS, going down from 3k on bosses, to 2k on the same bosses. I have the exact same buffs, 60% crit raidbuffed with mongoose proccs. I've tried to find valid information about this, but blizzard seems to have left none. Any clue if this is a stealth nerf or whatnot?

 

• landsoul

How could you miss the 2+ pages talking about the normalization of deep wounds?

 

Frewt

Oh my, must be blind.

Now that that's clarified, Any suggestion to specs that doesn't mean mainstream TG or same old Arms tree? Is it still worth keeping the DW slow Mh, fast OH, stacking crit, etc?

 

Volgon

Do we have any consensus on what the preferred rotation will be for Wrath with the new 5 second bloodthirst? I'm currently in sunwell and trying both WW->BT and the old style BT->WW and it seems that leading with bloodthirst is a lot smoother. I don't get gcd clips with bloodsurged slams leading with BT and the rotation is shorter. However, one WW does more damage than one BT (I believe), any thoughts?

 

morimacil

I am using a basic rotation of:

BT--GCD(possibly a slam)--WW--0.5 sec for computer and brainlag--BT--GCD(possibly a slam)--GCD--0.5 sec for computer and brainlag

That should always allow you to use BT and WW on CD, leaves .5 seconds for reaction time and lag, and even if bloodsurge procs twice in 10 seconds, you still have a free GCD.

 

Volgon

That's what I've been using and I like it more than prioritizing whirlwind, I think I'll stick with it unless math backs up something else.

 

Grayson Carlyle

Isn't every rating-based stat going to suck at 80 until we get our AP up to pretty crazy levels?

 

Kaap

For 3.0.3 I calculated that you will need 174 hitrating to reach the softcap for Titan's Grip. More is nice for white attacks, but not that important to prioritise it over other stats, nor gem for it.

So I'd replace the 10 hitrating gem in your T6 pants for starters. And perhaps look around if there are nice/better items to replace some of your hit gear.

 

• landsoul

On rotations, it doesn't matter which you prioritize first really, the cooldowns dont overlap and you can always delay your bloodsurge. Whirlwind hits harder yes but also bloodthirst has the potential to do yield more damage with bloodsurge. Whatever skill you hit first, the rest of your rotation will get in line.

 

Wrata

@ArP: Does ArP count total boss armor or actual armor?

 

Sohlee

nevertheless i'd start with whirlwind in raids because it's two attacks to increase the chance of critting (for flurry). Also it's 5 rage less

 

hellord

Only counts the remaining armor after static debuffs (sunders, ff, executioner, cos, etc).
I'm not sure yet (not enough data atm) if executioner is calculated before ArP on gear, but the difference on low armor boss would be bigger than on high armor bosses.

ArP Whore

 

dr_AllCOM3

Can you please stop asking questions that have been answered like five times already? Think and search before posting, especially it you aren't a regular poster. We aren't your personal advisors. This forum can only provide valuable information because craptastic posts get punished.
To the rest: Stop answering those noob questions and just report them. Do you want to add three unnessecary answers to every dumb question? It's just spam.

DocsDK UI
Simulator

 

Christmanspunch

What does more dps? 2/2 impale with 1handers or titan's grip without imaple?

 

• landsoul

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t23083-w..._a/#post677532

Got SEP module working for excel. Download it it will answer your questions!