Future of a DPS Warrior - Page 17

gijoe · 07/05/07, 12:04 AM

I very rarely have to hold back to avoid pulling aggro. Everyone complaining about this issue should take a look at your tank for the answer. Our current mt very regularly pulls 1100-1200 tps on boss encounters, something i was also able to achieve pretty regularly as mt for illumination (mind you this is with mitigation/sta gear not high block threat gear). I am typically in the top 3 in dps on most fights while pulling #1 frequently when davia isnt there >.>

Watch the threat meter if your tank is not pulling 1100-1200 tps quite regularly (on boss encounters) then your mt might wanna toss on some more block or perhaps focus on effiecent threat gen as opposed to button mashing

. Oh and davia check out my sexah new weapons i got while you were out of town, your throne is in jeopordy!

D4vE · 07/05/07, 7:54 AM

Originally Posted by svagftw

Give your tanks windfury and battle shout, tell them to stack +blockvalue gear. At least that's what we're doing different from most guilds.

A shaman is wasted in the MT group, unless you bring 4 of them. We usually run with 2 resto and 1 enhancement shaman, and the resto shamans are in the caster dps groups for tide and wrath of air totem. A decision between removing 3-4 x 70 dps from wrath of air totem or 1-2 hybrids possibly holding back on the threat cap is quite an easy one.

MTs get either battleshout or LotP aura, but in general, especially when survivability is the key, we tell our shamans to drop tranquil air totem for the first 30 secs of a fight. We tell dps warriors to take over at least 1 debuff duty (helping to fully sunder the mob in the start and usually keeping demoshout up), if there is no dedicated OT for that task.

Our current mt very regularly pulls 1100-1200 tps on boss encounters, something i was also able to achieve pretty regularly as mt for illumination (mind you this is with mitigation/sta gear not high block threat gear). I am typically in the top 3 in dps on most fights while pulling #1 frequently when davia isnt there >.>

I highly doubt those sustained 1100-1200 TPS with the gear you mentioned, unless you are sitting in the melee dps grp. Spikes on KTM do not indicate sustained TPS.
The TPS spreadsheet gives you a good estimation (and even more important influence of gear changes) in a perfect world scenario (no movement, unlimited rage, etc. etc.)
[Warrior] Tanking TPS sheet.

Hoonboof · 07/05/07, 8:23 AM

Originally Posted by D4vE

I highly doubt those sustained 1100-1200 TPS with the gear you mentioned, unless you are sitting in the melee dps grp. Spikes on KTM do not indicate sustained TPS.
The TPS spreadsheet gives you a good estimation (and even more important influence of gear changes) in a perfect world scenario (no movement, unlimited rage, etc. etc.)
[Warrior] Tanking TPS sheet.

I could easily sustain 1000-1200tps without windfury when I was main tanking for my guild. A shaman is far from wasted in the MT group, think about it is 4 casters getting WoA better than all your DPS being able to go balls out and not worry about a thing?

Mearis · 07/05/07, 8:28 AM

Originally Posted by Hoonboof

I could easily sustain 1000-1200tps without windfury when I was main tanking for my guild. A shaman is far from wasted in the MT group, think about it is 4 casters getting WoA better than all your DPS being able to go balls out and not worry about a thing?

It is all your casters losing 50 mana/5 from manaspring, and your shaman losing on a shadowpriest. If the fight is extremly threat sensitive, just put a feral druid tanking it.

D4vE · 07/05/07, 8:42 AM

Originally Posted by Hoonboof

I could easily sustain 1000-1200tps without windfury when I was main tanking for my guild.

Again, there is no "sustained TPS meter", at least none that i know of. From where do you get those numbers?
Download the spread sheet, fill in your stats buffed and watch the result, and keep in mind it is a perfect world scenario.

Originally Posted by Hoonboof

A shaman is far from wasted in the MT group, think about it is 4 casters getting WoA better than all your DPS being able to go balls out and not worry about a thing?

Ok all your dps can go nuts with MT having windfury and sustaining 1100 TPS. How many of your DPS classes sustain 1700 DPS, especially if you ninja their support? =)

In our guild top dps sustained numbers are around 1400, usually by rogues, nothing they can't handle with a well timed vanish. A fury warrior comes close to that and is the only class with that high dps output, who has no threat dump at all. So my original statement holds: is sacrificing 4x 70 dps (and mana regen etc.) in your caster group worth 1-2 hybrid dps classes not having to worry about the agro ceiling?

Hoonboof · 07/05/07, 9:00 AM

Originally Posted by D4vE

Again, there is no "sustained TPS meter", at least none that i know of. From where do you get those numbers?

I'd hide KTM, do the fight and time it, and divide threat generated over the course of the fight by length of the fight. I don't think it gets any harder to measure that that does it?

Originally Posted by D4vE

Download the spread sheet, fill in your stats buffed and watch the result, and keep in mind it is a perfect world scenario.

When a spreadsheet directly conflicts with what I've seen I tend to not really trust it until it's more mature.

Originally Posted by D4vE

Ok all your dps can go nuts with MT having windfury and sustaining 1100 TPS. How many of your DPS classes sustain 1700 DPS, especially when you ninja their support? =)

I'd have never taken a shaman from a support group unless DPS was threat capped, and even then I'd take it from the casters and not the melee.

D4vE · 07/05/07, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by Hoonboof

I'd have never taken a shaman from a support group unless DPS was threat capped, and even then I'd take it from the casters and not the melee.

Or in other words: you don't waste a shaman in the MT group, or you bring 4 of them.

The real point is: none of your DPS classes should be threat capped, but fury warriors and maybe shadowpriests, as long as they know when to use their threat reducing abilities.

Hozz · 07/05/07, 9:45 AM

Svag and/or the people saying their tanks can throw 1100+ TPS can you post a link to some WWS data? Preferably something in SSC or TK.

Thanks!

svagftw · 07/05/07, 12:25 PM

We have leftover melee dps in tank group benefiting from windfury too and if we bring 2 ferals they get lotp as well.

Like:
grp1 -> tank tank feral rogue shammy
grp2 -> warr warr feral rogue shammy

gatz · 07/05/07, 1:14 PM

Interesting.
I thought blood pact and devotion aura were must have in the tank group.

svagftw · 07/05/07, 2:31 PM

Only on encounters where the boss hits like two trucks and dps doesn't really matter, like Archimonde.

Hozz · 07/06/07, 8:57 AM

Originally Posted by Hozz

Svag and/or the people saying their tanks can throw 1100+ TPS can you post a link to some WWS data? Preferably something in SSC or TK.

Thanks!

Anyone? I am really curious as to what a WWS log looks like when the tank is throwing 1100+ TPS for the duration of a fight. Both from a tank perspective and a DPS Warrior perspective.

• Zak · 07/06/07, 10:10 AM

I'm extremely interested in seeing some numbers too. WWS would be ideal so we can see a breakdown on skill usage, which might help folk raise their TPS accordingly.

svagftw · 07/06/07, 11:50 AM

I'll get one in our next raid, two offdays in a row now though ;_;

On another note, I decided to fraps Shade this week since I had a few requests for a movie. If you're interested Check it out

Naytoo · 07/06/07, 1:19 PM

Very normal raidsetup, ie uninteresting.

Balkoth · 07/06/07, 1:26 PM

Svag, there's a discussion going on in the public forum where a tank from DnT is claiming 1500-2000 TPS ( http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.p...264#post410264 ).

Is this anything close to what you've seen? I know our MT is probably doing 700-900 TPS, and I'll try to lock down a number on Morogrim tonight.

svagftw · 07/06/07, 1:59 PM

I don't doubt those numbers at all, during perfect conditions. I've seen our tank doing close to those numbers as well, but it's not very common and not even needed. 1300 is enough for everyone in the raid to go all out non stop.

Balkoth · 07/06/07, 3:33 PM

We're only 1/4 TK and 4/6 SSC but I'm pretty sure our tank is only at 700-800 TPS...I'll try to nail down an "exact" number on Tidewalker tonight.

I've love to see the breakdown of your tank's attacks through WWS, and I think at least two others have expressed the same desire.

svagftw · 07/06/07, 3:55 PM

Yeah I will get a wws parse tomorrow, as well as a parse of my own damage so we have some meat on the bone for more haste vs armor penetration discussion.

[edit] Or if someone wouldn't mind installing Recount for a bossfight and screenshot detailed skill usage for us.

whysoez · 07/06/07, 6:58 PM

Svag - fyi you've got a forum post on the WoW forums under Warrior discussion dealing with your Shade video :P

svagftw · 07/06/07, 7:11 PM

That's their problem :P. Try to keep this thread on topic!

Since US raidtime starts now, can we get one of you guys to run recount for a boss where you had at least windfury and be sure to screenshot it for us?

D4vE · 07/06/07, 7:42 PM

Originally Posted by Jamm

I recently got a Cataclysm's Edge from Archimonde and decided to give 31/30 a go just to see how it would perform for me, I've been a Fury warrior for pretty much my entire raiding life and bluntly thought to myself that it would not even come close to my Fury DPS. How wrong was I, to be honest I'm quite sure I do more DPS as 31/30 than I did with 17/44 which I found extremely odd to say the least, I run with the standard melee group consisting of a Enhancement Shaman and a Feral Druid and man do I pump out the DPS.

I think a big part of it could be down to the incredible Windfury procs I receive from Cataclym's coupled with sword proc just makes the extra white damage supreme compared to my Talon of the Phoenix. I usually run with 13.13% haste and around -700 armor reduction and I can certainly say it makes up for the hit and crit I will lose.

Sorry I have no proof of what I say but as 31/30 I could come top 3 (rogues-_-) on pretty much any fight except supremus for obvious reasons! So in short I'm saying once you get a great 2h try out 31/30, you won't be disappointed because I sure as hell wasn't :P You can check my 31/30 stats and gear in Armory and my Fury stats are as followed:

(Zerker stance)
29% crit
2066 AP
14% hit
13.13% haste
Talon of the Phoenix MH
Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH

As fury I use the standard BT>WW(1 point imp WW)>Hamstring rotation and very rarely use heroic unless the MT is dishing out some serious threat as obviously I can catch up during execute range.

I'm most likely going to try Fury again once I get the mace from Supremus as I feel that my DPS style is heavily based on Windfury and that mace has an extremely high top end and 2.8 speed. So we will see, but for now in my opinion 31/30 > 17/44 _IF_ you have one of the top end 2 handers.

I did pick up Soul Cleaver yesterday and gave 33-28 a shot today during our weekend SSC run. I had a lot of tanking to do and was never in a pure melee dps group, still I am quite sure i would have put out more dps in my former fury spec with The Decapitator/Hope Ender. Yes I adjusted my gear as good as possible to match the 2H spec and yes, i probably need a lot more experience handling it for optimized dps output =)

Two points I would like to put up for discussion:

- Is 31-30 worth it at all compared to 33-28? You gain 6% white damage and lose 4% dmg on your special attacks (on mobs, who can bleed of course). Even if you ignore the raid dps buff of blood frenzy, it is a close call in terms of personal dps in my opinion (I did not do any number crunching yet though).

- Is imp slam worth it? With WF I had amazing streaks of 10-15 slams in a row, fed only by my WF procs. After emptying my rage bar it just took 2-5 white attacks (depending on crits and WF procs) to fill up my rage bar and start the slam-spam again. Obviously you can heavily abuse slam if you get rage fed by damage, like e.g. at Naj'entus, but if WF alone can sustain a reasonable rage income, you could ignore +haste items completely and focus on -armor items only for 2H builds.

Quixotic · 07/06/07, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by D4vE

I did pick up Soul Cleaver yesterday and gave 33-28 a shot today during our weekend SSC run. I had a lot of tanking to do and was never in a pure melee dps group, still I am quite sure i would have put out more dps in my former fury spec with The Decapitator/Hope Ender. Yes I adjusted my gear as good as possible to match the 2H spec and yes, i probably need a lot more experience handling it for optimized dps output =)

Two points I would like to put up for discussion:

- Is 31-30 worth it at all compared to 33-28? You gain 6% white damage and lose 4% dmg on your special attacks (on mobs, who can bleed of course). Even if you ignore the raid dps buff of blood frenzy, it is a close call in terms of personal dps in my opinion (I did not do any number crunching yet though).

- Is imp slam worth it? With WF I had amazing streaks of 10-15 slams in a row, fed only by my WF procs. After emptying my rage bar it just took 2-5 white attacks (depending on crits and WF procs) to fill up my rage bar and start the slam-spam again. Obviously you can heavily abuse slam if you get rage fed by damage, like e.g. at Naj'entus, but if WF alone can sustain a reasonable rage income, you could ignore +haste items completely and focus on -armor items only for 2H builds.

Why would you use back to back slams? Imp slam is a really good talent because you can use a white hit -> slam -> special rotation and gain one second on your next white hit.

Grayson Carlyle · 07/06/07, 9:04 PM

Originally Posted by Quixotic

Why would you use back to back slams? Imp slam is a really good talent because you can use a white hit -> slam -> special rotation and gain one second on your next white hit.

Just did some quick number crunching. Even if you miss your swing/slam by up to .3s every time, it's still more DPS than infinite-rage slam-spamming with MS when it's up, not by much, but still more. You gotta really suck with your swing/slams to be better off just spamming slam. Even if you have infinite rage, you get more attacks in with a swing/slam, MS odd, WW/HmS even cycle.

D4vE · 07/06/07, 9:10 PM

Thats exactly the question. Even if you get the perfect rotation going and can weave in the slams, right after a white attack, when both MS and WW are on cooldown (keep world cooldowns in mind as well), isn't it better to simply white attack for full rage and then slam back to back, effectively reducing your weapon speed to world cooldown (plus gaining all other slam boni like non normalized AP calculation and no glancing blows) and keep slamming as long as WF feeds you with enough rage?

Keep in mind I just played around with my build and new toy today, but this was a question which immediately occurred to me after seeing the incredible dps output of back to back slamming.

Edit:
Ok, Grayson was faster, thanks for the clarification.