Roflobster

Our only enhancement shaman respecced elemental today, so it leaves our guild with 3 resto and 1 elem shaman. Before we generally had 3 shaman per raid, WF and SoE for melee from enhance shaman, and Mana Tide + WoA for caster groups.

But now only caster groups are getting the shaman, leaving our melee (1 fury warrior and 2 sword rogues) with no WF. I've searched the forums for who gets the most gain from shaman totems, but I've found no math comparing WF and SoE vs. Mana tide and WoA, besides the warrior spreadsheets (and our raid leader will only take math). I need help convincing our raid leader to give melee one of the resto shaman.


Before this, I spent a few weeks convincing them that WF is better than GoA.

 

Myul

Using the stats of your average caster and show how +101 spelldamage, a (talentated) manaspring and manatide or a totem of wrath benefits them (+ eventually 1% hit from your dranaei aura). Then do the same for your melees. There are several dps spreadsheets for all relevant classes.

A restoration shaman in a melee group will allmost allways leave him without a shadowpriest, and that hurt his healpower a lot.

Depending on your raid composition and stacking of healing, caster or melees, you should decide it. A feral druid with lotp won't bring that huge benefit than an enhance shaman would, but on certain fights lotp is very strong and 5% crit is allways welcome (and better then nothing/only battle shout).

 

Naytoo

Why bother? Your guild uses a raidsetup that favors dps warriors totally. You get all the group buffs, melee shaman, druid, your tank even gets groups buffs to be able to handle fury threat, soul stones for the countless of times you die by overaggro. It has nothing to do with the future of a dps warrior, no other guilds are silly enough to focus their setup on 1-2 players that much. It's as interesting as the dps a mage will do with a shaman, shadowpriest, doomkin etc. Showoff movies of gimmick fights don't really add to these forums either.

 

svagftw

Obviously you didn't get my point, the parses are for seeing exactly how much of the damage is affected by haste. Armor penetration affects all damage (Hits, crits, glancings white hits and specials) while haste only works on hite damage and heroics, what we've been trying to figure out if you followed this thread is which of the stats is better.

And people requested wws parse of our tanks abilities since I claimed he's doing 1.3k tps, of course I will give it to them.

Also,yes, I agree with all your points above. We usually don't get BM Hunter in group, nor soulstones on anything but farm fights ^^

 

Rishina

The reason shade of akama was tailored to Svags advantage was that the fight favours melee damage, and from what ive heard, pacifism's melee generally do more damage than casters. But it was nice to see. What i would be interested in was a comparison between equal itemisation amounts of haste rating and -armor. Such as 38 haste rating compared with 175 armor penetration.

 

svagftw

Yes, me too. And to do that we need to know how much each of them increases your overall dps, I'll be back later tonight with some numbers we can work with.

 

Shoxx

Don't you remember the result of such fury-dps-videos in the past?

Although your dps is quite nice, I see flurry getting nerfed again next patch



That question sounds like you're looking for a comparison between http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32278 and http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32608, right?

In this case, I think you should look at the other stats as well: Grips of Silent Justice also have up to 60 Strength without any enchants (only sockets + raw stats). That makes them much more desireable in my opinion. Luckily I possess both of them (the grips dropped from akama yesterday), so I'll try to compare them in practical use the next days.

 

Rishina

No i wasnt referring to those items. I was just referring to the numbers. As the stats seem quite similar, apart from the sockets and the haste / armor penetration.

I have no idea which one is better myself, as i have neither of them. But haste seems to be quite a cheap stat, with a noticeable effect, the usefullness of -armor depends on the mob armor. Nonetheless it will be interesting to see what numbers you can get Svag.

I doubt flurry gets nerfed next patch. We do around the same damage as rogues ( we're competitive with them ) which is what blizzard intended. Granted some fights we do more, some they do more. It also depends alot on the skill of the player.

 

Oby

Just curious Svag, that was some pretty impressive dps in your video. What attack rotation do you use, its working well for you. Doesnt look like any normal boring sequence. Also how much ap and crit were you pushing during that timeframe.

 

galzohar

101 spell damage for a mage is generally a little under 5% DPS increase, excactly how much depends on how geared he is. With my gear it's quite close to 5%. Mana spring/tide are nice but not that much of a DPS increase if you already have a shadow priest especially when the fight isn't exceptionally long, however if you're an arcane mage with 2/5 T5 every extra mana you get can be converted into some damage, but probably not enough to be even close to matching up the 8-10% DPS rogues are supposed to get from it and ~20% warriors are (rogue/warrior benefits based on other people's calculations not mine, mage DPS is based on my calculations though).

 

svagftw

So I got what I needed during todays raid:


Total damage done: 371,405
60% of my damage was affected by haste.

The boss had 15.79% mitigation (Armor value is wrong, this is somewhere around 2k armor? Lets assume it is):



100% of damage is affected by armor penetration.

The comparision;

38 haste rating (3.61% haste) vs 175 armor penetration.

En extra 3.61% haste on 60% of my total damage (371405*0.6=222843) gives me 8044 extra damage (222843*1.0361).

An extra 175 armor penetration reducing 2000 armor to 1825 on 100% of my total damage gives according to the Armor formula (Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59))))
Reducing mitigation from 14.3% to 13.2% means you deal (1-.132)/(1-.143)=1.0128 or 1.28% more DPS, not 0.8%. (Thanks galzohar for correcting me) 371405*1.0128=376159 damage, 4754 extra damage.

Clear victory for haste. But 175 armor penetration doesn't equal 38 haste in item budget (I think?). How much does armor penetration cost in comparision to haste?

 

Rishina

Im not sure if it does equal, but it would make sense if it did.

I was sort've comparing grips of silent justice and pillagers gauntlets as they have equal itemisation points ( lv 141 ) and the same kind of stats.

Nevertheless for -armor to equal haste rating it would need to cost alot less itemisation wise, 2.3x less then haste. I think that shows haste as the clear winner, but it would be interesting for 38 haste VS 175 armor penetration on a low armor boss, like solarian and see if the results are any different.

 

galzohar

Reducing mitigation from 14.3% to 13.2% means you deal (1-.132)/(1-.143)=1.0128 or 1.28% more DPS, not 0.8%. Still less than 5k.
With a lower armor boss it would've been slightly more, but if you calculate you'll see the difference won't turn the tide in the comarison mentioned above.
It's easy to calculate on different armor levels as armor penetration damage increase is independant of what kinds of damage you were doing, as it's all physical and affected by armor (except rend maybe?).

 

svagftw

/Bonk self, thanks for correction, edited my post.

 

D4vE

The 1200 TPS tank claims still itched me, so I patched a small Excel sheet together to analyze Teron Gorefiend fights from default, EJ and Four Kings listed on lossendil. Teron is as close to tank & spank as it gets in our state of progress, the tank has to have high TPS and should have plenty of rage.

I used the data in this thread in the EU forums for my calculations.

This are the assumptions and simplifications I made:
- Sunder armor is not listed in the WWS parses for some reason, so I just assumed every tank did 5 sunders and sticked to devastate after that.
- I ignored the threat gain from buffs/debuffs like commanding shout/demoralizing shout. They are hard to track in the WWS parses and their impact should be negligible.
- I calculated the passive healing threat in the best way possible for the tank. According to ingame tool tips I assumed healing threat is affected by defensive stance, but not by defiance. I did not split healing threat between Teron and the constructs (since they are "out of phase"), but to be honest it's very likely the healing threat is split in this fight, it was just much easier to calculate it in this way.


Anyways here are the results:

Frezy, default
Paches, EJ
Gordo, Four Kings

To be honest, these numbers seem to be very low, even for me. But on the other hand I double checked everything, so unless I got something fundamentally wrong, or missed something, 1200 TPS tanks are simply a myth, because I highly doubt a shaman will increase your TPS output by 50%.

Feel free to prove me wrong, I even wish you did =)

 

svagftw

I'll play around with that spreadsheet myself, lets see.

[edit]

Our tank



Those numbers seem a bit more realistic.

 

Obould

Thats from the TPS spreadsheet, what you have todo is go to your WWS, pick your tank, count:

Devestates, Heroic Strikes, SS, raw dmg, healing which gives the tank agro and then you get a threat number, this you divide / time and then you have a REAL (not hypotetically) TPS over a fight!!

 

galzohar

Well if you do less than the theorycrafted cycle, either you're short of rage, the fight doesn't allow attacking 100% of the time or your tank was simply slacking... So if a spreadsheet shows 1200 tps on a tank&spank unlimited rage fight there's no excuse to get less if the spreadsheet doesn't use bogus data (like not counting misses or stuff like that).

 

Obould

As you said this spreadsheet assumes

- 100% rage all the time
- tank does not Thunderclap (which can be ressisted)
- tank does not DemoShout (yet this task can be given to dps warriors)
- misses/dodges/parries

which is just plain and simple completly unrealistic!!!

And again there is no such tank&spank fight which would include all those above mentioned points. The very first second you dodge/parry or the mob misses you for a streak of attacks you are rage starved and this cycle is broken and every warrior will agree with me that the skill in TPS is bound to rage and cycleing the skills with the given rage you have.

So how can you get a real realistic TPS from tanks:

a) Choose a fight which you think is tank & spank

For the threat the skills are giving read:
b) http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....94319875&sid=1

c) record a fight via WWS

d) Count the dmg / skills used / healing - threat of your MT

Then you get a threat number, divide this with the lenght of the fight and you have your real sustained TPS from the MT, and if Ghorms numbers are correct then this TPS spreadsheet is soo off from even comming close to realistic (~400TPS difference) that either:

1) numbers from b) are wrong

or

2) he completly miscalculated it, but i flew over it a bit and it seems correct.

 

D4vE

As tank you have to mitigate a lot, it is as important as TPS. If you check out above 3 posted WWS data, Paches is by far the best tank in terms of TPS, but he only did half the amount of shieldblocks compared to Frezy and did not TC at all (which can be compensated with a dedicated TC warrior ofc). I don't want to let this drift off into a "who is the better tank discussion" though. After all our rogues have highest sustained DPS of all in above mentioned 3 examples, and the TPS of our tanks is well enough to kill Teron full out without overagro.

If you read the thread of the TPS spreadsheet, the author even claims those values to be purely theoretically, which should give you an idea of possible TPS and, even more important, shows the impact of gear changes on your TPS.

If I find the time next week, I will try to verify, if healing agro is affected by defensive stance or not, already talked with one of our priests how to do it.

The real question is: are those numbers true? If yes, fury warriors (shadowpriests and ele/enh shamans) might be restricted by the agro ceiling soon. Those guys who claim their tanks are producing 1200 TPS, show those WWS parses, the calculations can even be done with pen and paper. Because either your tanks are doing something completely different than above posted 3 examples, or my calculations are simply wrong =)

 

galzohar

1st if you're not taking misses/dodges into account, you really should. Dodges cannot be worked around (aside from weapon skill which you both aren't going to have and it doesn't really change much anyway), and very little tank gear has any hit rating on it. So you're probably going to be running with the full 5.6% dodge 8% miss (I think those are the numbers at least, worth verifying), cutting your 1200 TPS down to 1037.

Then if nobody keeps thunderclap/demo for you (as far as I noticed picking up TC for a dps warrior is easy but imp demo is not as easy, althogh possible if you really need it so you don't get threat capped ;p). Shouldn't be hard to add those to the rotation if applicible.

Shield block shouldn't have an effect on TPS beyond some extra rage requirement and the fact it's another thing to look at. It's not on the global cooldown so it shouldn't replace any normal moves you're using, just like heroic strike.

For mitigation I'm not sure how to really apply this as I don't actually own a warrior, but I suppose you can easily figure out how many attacks in a row you need to completely avoid to become rage starved (2? 1? 3?) and model it with the chance for such a streak to happen. For example if dodging/parrying 2 hits in a row means you don't have rage for the next 2 heroic strikes until you're hit again, and your total chance for being missed/dodge/parry is X, then (1-X)^2 of the time you'll lose 2 heroic strikes. This is just an example of course but you can easily adjust it in the model to reality.

My saying still stands that if reality doesn't match the theory, either you're doing something wrong in reality or your theory is wrong - but in both cases it's rarely something that cannot be fixed ;p

 

Xerophyte

How much TPS you can put out is very heavily correlated to how much damage reduction your mob has. The TPS spreadsheet defaults to 30%, which is at the high end for a generic raid-debuffed boss mob. It also doesn't account for threat from healing you do with Life Bloom, Prayer of Mending & Earth Shield (all of which, far as I know, get the full Defstance + Defiance bonus), damage done by Spell Reflect or rage gain from Bloodrage, Shield Specialisation and Unbridled Wrath.

The only significant effects there are the overestimation of damage reduction and ignoring of healing, still, it's sufficient to make the spreadsheet underestimate tps severely for certain fights.


As for the Gorefiend parses, my immediate guess would be that Gorefiend has pretty good damage reduction and/or his dps on the tank is insufficient to allow full ability spam. The players presented managed to hit, assuming your assumptions on Sunder use were correct:

Frezy: 2.97 seconds/instant, 3.03 seconds/hs
Paches: 2.09 seconds/instant, 3.81 seconds/hs
Gordo: 3.37 seconds/instant, 3.19 seconds/hs

Even accounting for miss, dodge, block & parry all were well below maximum ability spam. Presumably for good reasons, such as debuffs or lack of rage, but nevertheless. I suppose the obvious question is if anyone has seen a tank solidly maintain 1200ish TPS on that fight in particular? If it is a high-DR boss then 800-900 TPS is a very believable value for near-optimal play from a tank that can perform 1100-1200 TPS on a boss that is reduced to near 0 armour.

 

Runemist

Hi am sorry if this has been seen previously but figured id ask the question right away.
Am currently raid leading for a guild entering BT and even if the dps warrior spot is already granted am still trying to study which is best for the raid between fury and arms with BF.

Here are my non theorycrafted pros and cons.

Fury :
Pros : Higher DPS
Cons : Higher Threat.

Arms :
Pros : Increases the raid dps even in tank gear
Cons : Lower dps (how much lower is quite the question tho)

I'd like to know pretty much what guidelines are there between picking the two specs in term of general raid efficiency i guess the 2 important values in the equation are the tank threat if applicable and the physical dps of the raid (atm we tend to run caster heavy).

 

Zakath

Your rogues will stop crying when they will get 382 AP Battle shout.

 

Maskirovka

*452 bshout, solarian trinket!

Without knowing your raid composition, saying "caster heavy" should lean you away from blood frenzy. There's always going to be a break point at which BF spec raid DPS is higher than the same warrior as fury minus his individual BF spec dps. You won't reach that break point with only a few melee.