Given your current hit/crit levels, you would be better off as 31/30. Of course you would want a Karazhan or Arena level two hander first. 31/30 is fine, and does "good" raid DPS, but requires Windfury. DW is simply better but requires a setup that generally takes longer to get. If you want to go DW, then you need to acquire the gear. In the meantime just use whatever spec and weapons will provide the most raid DPS.

There are also many people that argue grabbing Blood Frenzy will yield "higher raid DPS" *in comparision to a similarly geared Dual Wield build*, yet that requires a raid that has an abnormally high amount of physical damage dealers that are all doing abnormally high DPS. There are also other factors involved such as who is the one using Demo Shout and Thunder Clap.

*edited for clarity.

That statement is completely false, and I'll show you why:

Let's make up a fake raid against a fake boss with only 5 melee DPSers in it. The fight doesn't matter, only the damage output. I've made up some fake final DPS standings to illustrate my point. The below raid comp would be considered bringing a "small" amount of melee DPS. Most raids run with 1 enhancement shaman, 2-3 rogues, 2-3 warriors (who may or may not be DPSing), 1-2 hunters, a tank on the target, and a Feral Druid. That's 11 people that will be benefiting from Blood Frenzy the entire time in a "normal" raid comp. For the sake of the arguement, I'll only consider 5.

Damage Done as 31/30
Warrior: 300,000
Rogue1: 295,000
Rogue2: 280,000
Hunter1: 250,000 (including pet)
Hunter2: 250,000 (including pet)
Total melee damage done: 1,375,000

Now, If that warrior respecs, he's going to lose 10% attack speed, which in turn is going to cut down on his white damage by about 10%. Let's throw out a random number here and say that 50% of that warrior's DPS is white damage, or 150,000. He's going to lose 15,000 dmg on the above fight by re-speccing to 33/28. In turn, he's going to gain an additional 4% damage on all his attacks, and another 4% on all of his yellow attacks that make up the other 50% of his total damage done.

White Damage: 150,000 - 15,000 + 6000 = 141,000
Yellow Damage: 150,000 + 6000 = 156,000

Damage Done on same fight under same circumstances, but as 33/28
Warrior: 297,000
Rogue1: 306,800 (295k * .04)
Rogue2: 291,200
Hunter1: 260,000
Hunter2: 260,000
Total melee damage done: 1,415,000

Theoretical Arms DPS Warrior loses 3,000 damage. Theoretical raid gains 40,000. Mind explaining to me why Blood Frenzy requires "an abnormally high amount of physical damage dealers" to see any benefits?

Looking at these numbers, you'd only need 1 more physical DPS to see an increase in raid DPS by dropping points in Flurry and putting them in Blood Frenzy.

I was comparing DW to 33/28, not 33/28 to 31/30. That supposed 40k damage that is "gained" from Blood Frenzy would have been "gained" most likely by a solitary DW Warrior just the same without the requirement of every other physical damage dealer being alive and pumping out continual damage as well as making sure dots are up 100% of the time. I don't doubt that a BF build would outperform 31/30 when all of the requirements are met. I do not however believe it is "better" than a DW build until a) you are threat capped badly and b) your raids combined physical damage dealers will gain significantly more damage through the debuff than what you lost.

And if 33/28 is so much better than 31/30 for raid DPS, why are you 31/30 right now? Is that just your prefered PvP spec?

Could be that he has an imp Slam build and some other warrior in his guild has the 33-28 spec.

I don't know of any reason why Imp Slam wouldn't be in a two handed spec. Unless someone really hates using it or would simply rather have Imp Intercept for PvP purposes. But then since this is about raiding, I would guess they take more than one Warrior to DPS with on raids. I really don't understand the point of trying to champion one spec, while posting WWS as another (without the spec in question). It's contradictory.

Correct. We have 2 other Arms DPS warriors (that OT as well), one of them has Blood Frenzy. They all have Improved Slam.

To be honest, up until now, I wasn't sure. I hadn't bothered to do the math, but I was almost certain that it was worth the sacrifice to get Blood Frenzy. Thanks to my post that was directed at yours, I now have the answer.

We raid with a large amount of warriors, so we've always had someone with Blood Frenzy in our raids. I've never bothered to pick it up because of that. Also, because I play 2 different characters for our raids, I cannot be relied upon to have it. Instead, I have Imp Demo Shout. A fair compromise, in my opinion.

Contradictory? How so? It's straight-foward information. I wasn't trying to "champion" any spec. You said Blood Frenzy was bad. I say it's good, and I use it. I presented information to back up my claim, where's yours?

Just because I posted a WWS of me chain-cleaving 4 adds away from everyone else does not discredit the fact that it's better. Would I have done more "raid damage" with Blood Frenzy on my current target and the rogues assisting me? Absolutely.

My post was simply directed at having Blood Frenzy versus NOT having Blood Frenzy. Obviously, I have the luxury of not needing to spec it. Does that mean I should spec it to further prove my point? No. What's the point of having 2 Blood Frenzy's in the raid?

Furthermore, Read what you said:

It doesn't make any sense that you would tell him he's better off as one spec, but then turn around and tell him to spec something else. Obviously, with his lack of Fury gear, he's going to provide most to his raids as 33/28. Apparently, I'm not the only one contradicting myself.

Prove it.

Things to keep in mind:
- Arms can also sustain very high amounts of single target DPS, close to that of Fury.
- The above estimation of gain was assumed using only 5 physical DPS. Most raids bring 10. A "normal" raid will gain ~80,000 dmg from Blood Frenzy.

Actually, If I'm the only person attacking the target(s) the majority of the time (and I was), 31/30 would be superior.

You're right though, it is napkin math. But, I could have easily plugged REAL numbers in it. If you can't see that it makes perfect sense even with "fake" numbers, then I guess I can't persuade you further.

Well, SwordSpec so when MS/WW on cooldown Hamstring and ragedump with HeroicStrike!!

Sword spec doesn't change anything. It's not like slam doesn't proc the extra swings, and it's still the best damage per rage we have.

Swing/Slam, MS, Swing/Slam, WW, Swing/Slam, MS, Swing/Slam, HS
There is no rotation that can do more damage than that as a 2H warrior, even if your MS is being used every 8s instead of 6. The closer you can bring your weapon to 2.5s swing with haste, the better it gets. This rotation also allows you a LOT of time to get pummels off on fights where it's required.

If you can pull that rotation off perfectly with a 1400 [actual] average white hit damage with a base 3.7s weapon (14s cycle), flurried with windfury (14 attacks that do weapon damage), you're doing at least 1260 single target dps including glancing and dodges. That doesn't include impale, deep wounds, heroic strike, hamstring damage or the bonus damage from MS and slam. If Svag can crit for 3k with his main hand, any 2H in his gear should easily have 1400 average white hit damage.

Svag's not critting for 3k with his MH weapon as fury spec, Unless were talking about a specific boss encounter like akama which increases physical dps (Pointless to include).

Are you using Heroic strike in raids? Any problems with agro or rage generation? I much prefer to use imp Slam over HS in raid. Seems like more bang for the buck as well less threat, especially after a nice crit string.

Heroic Strike is a terrible rage dump for an MS Warrior unless you've somehow got another source of rage and you can't spend it fast enough.

I would go further and argue that Heroic Strike is absolutely terrible for a MS Warrior full-stop. Imp Slam is a far,far better rage-dump.

Well that's the case on paper of course.

Even after downloading quartz swing timer, perfecting this rotation is next to impossible for me. Quartz is not 100% accurate and even 1 messed up slam can cost you a lot of dps. Also keep in mind that you have to be off world cooldown, at the moment where the swing happens, so you can cast your slam immediately, which often is not the case.

That being said, I did sustain 1100-1200 dps, depending on boss last week (with trying to fiddle in slams). If you add another 40 dps from every other 1k dps physical damage dealer, 33-28 with the right gear is well worth the raidspot at the moment.

With sword spec and WF using your "free" world cooldowns on harmstings and HS as rage dump simply excludes any lost dps from messed up slams, and every 4th harmsting resulting in an extra attack should be pretty decent dps.

Basically even with imp slam weaving it was impossible for me to get rid of all my rage and as stated earlier in this thread, back to back slamming is not the way to go.

Obould, check out this spec ( World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents ) for a 33/28 build. I think you'll gain more dps from Imp Slam vs. 2/3 Imp Cleave as well as 2/2 Weapon Mastery. I just recently switched from 17/44 to 31/30 after crafting Stormherald but will probably use that 33/28 build depending on our raid makeup this week.

Reducing the cost of HS seems odd considering how Slam is generally agreed to be much better than HS as a 2hander's rage dump.

I'd suggest something like this. Adding Anger Management to compensate for only 3 points in Unbridled Wrath but gaining a little more versatility with a few points in Imp Demo.

Piercing Howl is optional here, and the point could go into filling Commanding Presence or getting some more out of Flurry.

I'm wondering if a macro can be made that allows you to mash the Slam button, but it will not activate until an auto attack lands before it. There are similar macros for Hunters with Steady Shot. It's more "efficient" if you can land the Slam right after the white hit, not 0.5 - 1 second later but it's nearly impossible to ALWAYS land every Slam perfectly, especially on fights where you have to move around a lot. And Slam is the best damage for the rage because it's not normalized. Heroic Strike is really awful in comparison for a two hander.

That would be interesting indeed, on the other hand who wants to have hunter easy mode? =)

On a more serious note, what really would improve the situation a lot, is a really accurate swing timer. The best I have found so far is quartz, but as stated above it's not 100% relieable as well.

The best results I get by ignoring the swing timer completely and watching the animations of my alter ego. If i press slam at the very same moment my character strikes out, the slam more or less hits a split second after the white attack. Dunno if this is lag or whatever, but it worked for me. Unfortunately this does not work too well if you stand bunched up with the other melee on the back of a boss.

I just posted this on the official warriors forums. I guess I've been up for entirely too long but I have no idea why the f I didn't come here. Anyways, I took my alt/new main into her first 25 man raid today and was looking to gain some knowledge about the different rotations used. This character is geared/spec'd for PvP so I know I'm not going to be a chart topping powerhouse, but I'd like to make sure I'm doing everything I can to help maximize myself to the raid.

I know on my old main, a hunter, shot rotations were key to having good dps. Seeing a hunter just mash his shots and then comparing his dps to a hunter with a tight rotation was like night and day. Naturally I figure it's there's a most efficient way to mash my keys on this character as well.

One friend suggested a MS, auto attack, slam, slam rotation which I was getting the hang of. Another suggested that MS/WW were on priority. Also, I had windfury so the option of working in hamstring into the rotation came up as well.

I'm not really in a position to be taking a lot of DPS gear (fury or arms biased) as I've mainly been trying to pick up tanking gear. I have some sick love for tanking, but I have to be able to gear up some more which means I'll be stuck doing DPS for a while.

In PvP I just bind the right hand side of my keyboard to a MS/hamstring macro and the left hand side to a WW/hamstring macro and beat on the keyboard it does pretty well. I figure there's a cleaner way to DPS in raid settings though.

Here's an armory link The Armory

Fury Warriors: Does DnT Have Any? - Death & Taxes - Forum

Has some interesting comments (amid some dribble) about the spec and dps rotations. And while it takes some time, you can find a good number of valuable tips in this thread.

One suggestion is to get rid of the Alliance trinket, not many times will it be needed for a raid. Secondly, you're specced for PvP so you could better allocate your talents for a raid environment.

I'm trying to persuade our DPS warrior to spec to something like this, or this. It all calculates out perfectly in theory.
However, he's worried his rage generation will go down a lot because of having 2 points less in "Flurry".

It is really that bad, or is he just worried for no reason? The damage increase for all the melee in the raid should more than make up for the small ~60 dps that he loses for himself.

I can't really theorycraft it, since the Warrior DPS spreadsheet seems to be focused on Dual wielding.

@Randor, Yeah, it looks almost like none of the top guilds take a dedicated "Fury dual wield" warrior, they all take 2H warriors for their DPS. Any loss in personal DPS will be made up by Frenzy across the raid. It also solves the problem of Fury's insane agro generation because of using HS as a rage dump by spreading that damage across 5-8 other people.

Not to mention 33/28 is significantly more PvP viable then 17/44.

Edit: @Zurgat, 2 points in flurry = 10% less white damage...which makes up ~50% of our damage...so 5% less damage over all. That is made up by doing 4% more damage from Frenzy to almost balance out perfectly. If there is ever a single other physical DPS in the raid, you will see a DPS improvement from 31/30 to 33/28.

True, his rage generation will be hit, but we are talking something like 6% less rage generation here. That about the difference from going to a T2 to a T3 BS weapon rage generation wise. With windfury rage generation usually isn't a problem anyways.