yeah Natural, what is your AP like in raids that allows your average white hit to be 632? it looks like you were running without a bm hunter and a feral druid in your group, but had a shaman (enh maybe? unleashed rage is only shown as being gained once) and a ret paladin.
My average hits are like 330ish using a 2.6 and 1.5 speed weapon, just like him. Food, flask, sharpening stone, enhancement shammy...maybe CoW on the boss on top of FF and sunder....still, his average hit is double what mine is.
@Natural, How in the HELL did you do 1500 DPS on Anetheron?!? Our gear is very very similar, but you are doing close to double my damage somehow.
Were you buffed like mad? food/flask/sharpening stone/3 pally buffs/enhancement shaman?
Does anetheron have extremely low armor?
Is there something you are able to cleave/WW the crap out of? (doesn't look like it from the logs)
Yes to all of your assumptions. Food, flask, sharpening stone, 3 blessings, enhancement shaman. I also think I used a haste potion when reckless executing.
I'm not sure how much armor Anetheron has. We probably used CoR on that fight, since ranged is usually focusing on the adds. All of my damage was against Anetheron (no multi-target cleaves or whirlwinds).
Also, I don't think I was slept at all that fight, which makes a big difference. We also used Bloodlust on the boss since we had no problems keeping up with the trash waves. We had great raid DPS overall, which results in a fast kill where bloodlust/deathwish/recklessness playing a larger factor in total DPS.
Originally Posted by Calgar
My average hits are like 330ish using a 2.6 and 1.5 speed weapon, just like him. Food, flask, sharpening stone, enhancement shammy...maybe CoW on the boss on top of FF and sunder....still, his average hit is double what mine is.
I believe my AP sits around 3300 raid buffed without unleashed rage. I haven't looked at it recently, though, so it may be a little off.
For this kill I was still using a netherbane (2.6) in my offhand. I only recently picked up the swiftsteel mace.
Here's our latest Gorefiend kill. I still managed 1414 DPS, but my average white hit was 391 using weapon speeds 2.6/1.5 (closer to your expectations).
Edit: Note: Two bloodlusts. Our Enh shaman was the first to be marked for death, so he used bloodlust and I stole the shaman out of the MT group afterwards =)
Because using Cleave to dump rage is even worse than using Heroic Strike. Cleave has higher Threat per Damage than Heroic Strike. So if Hamstring is not dumping your rage fast enough (and it usually isn't), Heroic Strike is your only option. http://elitistjerks.com/388900-post252.html
Also, my comments above comparing 2H MS/BF and DW Fury assume that the DPS warrior is in a shaman group.
I'm glad my calculations were of any help, I think still many Warriors are stuck in thinking of Cleave as an universal cure for the threat Heroic Strike causes while they're really only spending more rage to do less damage at pretty equal Damage per Threat.
From what I can see and even though it feels kind of wrong since you can end up with a full rage bar at times with it, the best thing to do when close to getting aggro is to use all your abilities on the GCD and dump as much excessive rage with HS as you can without going over the limit.
Because using Cleave to dump rage is even worse than using Heroic Strike. Cleave has higher Threat per Damage than Heroic Strike. So if Hamstring is not dumping your rage fast enough (and it usually isn't), Heroic Strike is your only option.
Well isn't hamstring a even worse rage dumper? According to wowwiki it adds 181 Bonus Threat, Hamstring, while Heroic Strike adds 196 Bonus Threat, Heroic Strike.
I guess a lower rank of Hamstring would work, but I'm not sure how you make a macro for a lower ranked Hamstring (if it's even possible).
Well isn't hamstring a even worse rage dumper? According to wowwiki it adds 181 Bonus Threat, Hamstring, while Heroic Strike adds 196 Bonus Threat, Heroic Strike.
I guess a lower rank of Hamstring would work, but I'm not sure how you make a macro for a lower ranked Hamstring (if it's even possible).
Sorry if it has been mentioned already.
heroic strike extra damage is +176 before armor red
hamstrings extra damage is +63 before armor red + 0.2 * your average mainhand damage from windfury totem.
hamstring also gives extra chances to proc flurry, trinkets, weapons.
Does anyone know if Harmstring's extra threat is only applied if the 'Harmstring' debuff is or everytime you deal damage with Harmstring?
I think both versions are theoretically possible.
yeah Natural, what is your AP like in raids that allows your average white hit to be 632? it looks like you were running without a bm hunter and a feral druid in your group, but had a shaman (enh maybe? unleashed rage is only shown as being gained once) and a ret paladin.
If the shaman keeps 'critting' before the Unleased Rage runs out, it wont ever wear off, and will therefore be unable to be added twice.
[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.
After reading several pages of this, I got to thinking about what I can do with the DPS warrior that our guild runs. Unlike many of you, he seems to have trouble being competitive DPSwise. We have killed Magtheridon, and we have Gruul on farm, and he is wearing Kara/Heroic gear. He has tried DW, and 2h specs, neither to much avail. I will admit, however, that I did not have him grouped with a shaman for his 2h spec, as we have only two in the guild, and one (myself) is speced elemental. I am going to make a much stronger effort to keep our resto shaman with the melee group for WF after reading some very convincing arguments here.
Now, onto the true issue, this warrior. The easy answer is replace him, but that is not the answer I am looking for. He plays on a rather low FPS machine, or rather very low, so I am sure he is not keeping up with swing cycles, which seems to me to say that he could not do a 2h build very well. Aside from optimizing his group makeup with a shaman, what should I be looking for as a raid leader to help him perform? His biggest issue is topping threat WAY too early; (says to me he is using Heroic Strike too much, but could I be oversimplifying this?) He ends up ending fights that he should be doing well in the middle range dpswise (8-10, around our lower hunter and moonkin.)
Now, onto the true issue, this warrior. The easy answer is replace him, but that is not the answer I am looking for. He plays on a rather low FPS machine, or rather very low, so I am sure he is not keeping up with swing cycles, which seems to me to say that he could not do a 2h build very well. Aside from optimizing his group makeup with a shaman, what should I be looking for as a raid leader to help him perform? His biggest issue is topping threat WAY too early; (says to me he is using Heroic Strike too much, but could I be oversimplifying this?) He ends up ending fights that he should be doing well in the middle range dpswise (8-10, around our lower hunter and moonkin.)
If he isn't competitive in dps, and threat is his issue then perhaps its also the tank has low TPS. A shaman will help a lot, and make sure he comes with full consumables. Feral druid in the group would be good too.
I used to have problems regarding 'Keeping up' with the rest of the DPS classes in my guild. Dual wield is extremely gear dependent, so as time went on I found that I started to keep up. I found WWS parses to help a lot too. I looked at other well known DPS Warriors cycles, and talked to some from my server to see what they were doing differently. Turns out I was using Cleave over Heroic Strike the majority of the time, and not using Hamstring enough. A good group set up is always handy (We usually have Me, Feral Druid, BM Hunter, Rogue, Rogue or Shaman if it is melee friendly).
If you run Paladin light, I found that by taking Blessing of Salvation over other blessings allows me to pretty much go all out on the majority of encounters, except ones with certain mechanics (Voidreaver and Gruul. And even on Gruul, I just tend to 'chill' for the first growth or so).
As a raid leader, I would have a little talk with him and tell him to start doing some decent damage, or there is other, better DPS that can take his slot. Point him to threads here, WWS parses (Even use it yourself to have a look), and make sure his gear is right for DPS (Gemmed and enchanted correctly, priority on the correct stats etc). Hope this helps.
Both of your posts are helpful. I know he is receptive to change, almost too receptive (he tends to take any n00bs suggesting seriously, hence why I want some evidence before I push him one direction or the other.) I will definitely take a look into WWS. I think a lot of it is just the wrong damage cycle, as he complains about rage, and his build is similar to others I've seen here. Most here are saying they have more rage than they can use with similar gear, so that leads to a bad cycle imo.
EDIT: To the above post, our tanks do have threat issues, that is something I am working with at the same time, but that is definately a discussion for another forum, one I am looking at as well.
Both of your posts are helpful. I know he is receptive to change, almost too receptive (he tends to take any n00bs suggesting seriously, hence why I want some evidence before I push him one direction or the other.) I will definitely take a look into WWS. I think a lot of it is just the wrong damage cycle, as he complains about rage, and his build is similar to others I've seen here. Most here are saying they have more rage than they can use with similar gear, so that leads to a bad cycle imo.
EDIT: To the above post, our tanks do have threat issues, that is something I am working with at the same time, but that is definately a discussion for another forum, one I am looking at as well.
As for him, a 2handed warrior without WF will always be rage-starved unless theres some incomming damage gimmick to the fight, otherwise gear might be the issue.
For the tanks, have them drop avoidance(I know most tanks will spit on me for saying this), We used to have a MT that really stacked avoidance to the max, the result was that even our mages/rogues got really threatcapped, I could barely autoswing. Good thing he quitted playing(I hope you dont read this -.-), and now our new tanks stack stamina, and as a result the raid-dps has gone up alot(For some fights we use ferals for better TPS).
You could always try throwing an extra shaman to the tanks for more TPS.
[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.
I'm currently MS, but I would like to respec to fury after getting the arena 1h swords.
Many warriors use a fast offhand, and I wonder why. I just can't see any advantage of a fast offhand weapon over a slow one. But maybe I'm wrong, and thats what I'd like to know. Several points came to my mind:
-Rage generation is normalized.
-Unbridled Wrath is normalized, and I'm not sure if I should skill it anyway (imp demo)
-Afaik a fast off-hand would take more of the flurry swings and therefore I would deal slightly less damage altogether.
-From what I read in other threads most procs follow a ppm mechanic. I would enchant the offhand with 20str or mongoose and I plan to pick up dragonspine trophy and tsunami talisman(hourglass till then), other than that mongoose on the main. Do those trinkets/enchants profit from a fast offhand? As far as I understand PPM, it means speed doens't make a difference. Is that correct?
- We don't have a melee shaman right now, but I hope we will get one soon. So what about wf? Offhand hits don't proc wf, so slow offhand should be no problem.
-Slower offhand also means less swings without heroic strike, hence better hit/swing (but less rage? HS hits dont give you any rage, right? I also dont know if there can be HS effect on offhand swing anyway). Also when HS spamming, I deal less HS overall and so less aggro with a slow offhand(if HS works that way). I'm most uncertain about this point.
-Less offhand strikes also means less offhand crits, so more bleed damage from deep wounds if lucky (ok, thats really not much, i know^^)
-Our guild is far from defeating kael'thas, so i would stick with those arena swords for quite a while.
So is a slow offhand better? And if it is, is it worth the effort paying double arena points for the slow sword?
So is a slow offhand better? And if it is, is it worth the effort paying double arena points for the slow sword?
I tend to favor faster offhands over slower ones, all other things being equal. The difference isn't staggering of course, but a faster offhand provides more steady rage generation, especially during the important sub 20% execute range. I like being able to more dependably get an execute off every global cooldown, rather than possibly waiting an extra half second or so. Second, faster offhands get better returns from sharpening stones. +12 to damage makes a much larger difference on a 1.5 weapon than a 2.6.
In the case of arena weapons, even if slower was slightly better, unless your arena team rakes in tons of points I'd still say go for the faster offhand. Since faster weapons seem to provide slightly better DPS returns, the arena offhand provides a superior weapon at half the cost, a double win.
Anecdotally, I noticed a marked improvement in my DPS when I upgraded my offhand from a vindicator's brand to an Emerald Ripper. I don't have any solid numbers, but my damage was higher than I thought the 6 DPS upgrade to an offhand should have improved it by.
it take more charges but also proc more flurry so it doesnt matter for flurry if you use a slow or a fast OH.
Although this belief is intuitive, it is false. Instant-attacks like bloodthirst and whirlwind proc flurry when they crit. The rate of flurry procs they contribute is static; therefore, if you use faster weapons you will have less overall flurry uptime.
Another thing to consider is that if your MH and OH have the same delay, I believe you actually gain 4 hasted swings from flurry instead of 3. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. Edit: apparently there is already a discussion about using equal weapon speeds for improved flurry uptime: [Melee Combat] How does Flurry Work?
I think the ideal scenario is to use equal-speed slow weapons in your MH and OH up until 19%. At 19%, switch in an equally-awesome fast OH to improve your ability to spam execute. Admittedly, it's ideal to expect that someone will have two OH weapons of equal quality but different delay.
I decided to try out a 20/41 2H DPS build last night. It was hard to get any real numbers out of last night because I was both trying to make new macros, learn when to use my new skills, and I didn't have a feral druid or a shaman.
My first impression is rampage really isn't that good (not surprising!). Now it might be because I was rage starved without LotP or WF. But inbtween weaving slams if I did have enough rage for something else it was either a choice of BT/WW or Rampage. It just didn't seem like Rampage was worth the spot in my global cooldown.
At first I tried getting Rampage up fast, and keeping it up. But by the end of the night I realized that I was missing too many BT/WW cooldowns doing this. The only time I can see using Rampage is where my cycle goes slam-BT-slam-WW-slam-BT-slam-(rampage if BS doesn't need a refresh). Seems like Rampage up-time is not going to be very good, and a pain to keep up. Of course Rampage isn't really considered on of the most fun talents in the game.
I was wondering if a 21/40 build would be better. I decided to go 5/5 2H mastery. I could put a point into impale, which is about a 1.0%-1.5% DPS boost. I wouldn't be surprised if Rampage was a net DPS lose for me last night how I was trying to use it .
07/27/07, 1:45 PM
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