Rampage really is not good for a 41 point talent (and less so for 2h fury) but if you are going to put 41 points in Fury I guess its at least worth taking.

Its a really weird talent though. Costs 20 Rage, lasts 30s but you have to get a crit to activate it and then hit the mob to boost its power. And its on the GCD. Way overly complicated IMO.

edit: 'really is not good' is too strong of criticism here. 250 AP IS really good for 1 talent point. I just think the mechanics of maintaining the 250AP are overly complicated.

When you're sitting on 30%+ Crit it's very very easy to keep up as DW.

Much harder as 2-hand fury though.

Hi guys, just wanted to post my 2 cents on this topic as it's been the subject of some pretty hot discussion on my guild as well.

I went ahead and took the plunge into 33/28 (from 20/41) a few days ago, and here are my findings based on a fairly solid DPS-intensive encounter: Teron Gorefiend.

As posted at WoW Forums -> MS- The new DPS spec?


So here it is - My breakdown of 33/28 performance in a high-end raiding scenario
==============================================================

I was skeptical of the performance of this spec originally, wary that dropping 10% AP, Bloodthirst, and 2/5 Flurry might come back to bite me in the ass. Very quickly I found out that my presumptions were wrong.

This post mostly revolves around my most recent raid, notably our kill of Teron Gorefiend.


Skill Breakdown
===============
For the first 80% I simply used the normal slam rotation we've become familiar with, breaking from it a handful of times to keep Demo Shout up on Gorefiend. Last 20% was the usual Reck/DW/Execute spam.


Damage Breakdown
===============
http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/meter.gif
http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/meter2.gif

I apolgize for this being broken into two images, I wanted to be able to include the 1st place DPS and unless I've overlooked it these two meters DO show the same numbers for all other places.

1) Shaitain - Combat Swords Rogue - 472,599
2) Nalladuril - Combat Swords Rogue - 404,249
3) SSlanfear - DW Fury Warrior - 393,654
4) Kiranat (Me) - 33/28 Warrior - 380,525
...
6) Zaidel - Enhancement Shaman - 347,261
...
9) Iccurus - Combat Daggers Rogue - 293,658

We also have a BM hunter, however if I remember correctly he was one of the first two people to get Shadow of Death.


DPS Breakdown
===============
http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/gordps.gif

Fight Length - 303 seconds (5 minutes, 3 seconds)
My Damage - 380,525

My DPS - 1255.8

While that on it's own isn't amazing (Shaitain pulling ~ 1550 DPS) let's plug in the DPS gained by all other melee.

Blood Frenzy adds 4% physical damage taken (by the boss), so let's add that DPS to my own and get an objective scale of the DPS done by a warrior with this spec.

(((472,599 x 0.04) + (404,249 x 0.04) + (393,654 x 0.04) + (347,261 x 0.04) + (293,658 x 0.04)) + 380,525) / 303

1508 (effective) DPS

While these numbers aren't quite as amazing as high as those posted about Serida (by Crazypie, page 8) I still consider them rather impressive. Please also note that my spec and weapon are inferior to hers (mace vs sword) though obviously that is not enough to close the 200 DPS gap between us.


Conclusion
===============
While 33/28 obviously is not the end-all and be-all of DPS, it certainly brings alot to the table, especially in a well rounded DPS group and in a relatively melee heavy raid.

In this example roughly 250 DPS was added to the raid's output and my personal damage output was only just shy of that of our fury warrior.




Please feel free to post back about this, ask questions, criticize, etc... I'd like any feedback I can to help better my play style and the DPS of myself and my guild.

The Armory

If that's your Fury Warrior I must say that you shouldn't compare your DPS to his as his gear choices and total gear level aren't that good in terms of maximum DPS.
If you compare his gear to mine, you can see:
- I have 48 AP more which are (/w talents) around 22 Strength on gear
- I have 1,26% Crit more which are around 28 Crit Rating on gear
- My main hand has a 212 haste rating for 10 sec. procc equaling around 50 permanent haste rating depending on conditions given
- My trinket has a 325 haste rating for 10 sec. procc equaling around 100 permanent haste rating depending on conditions given
- My other trinket has an activateable 278 attack power für 20 sec. equaling at least a 46,3 permanent AP given the 2 minute cooldown

- He has 78 more Hit Rating
- His trinket has a 300 Attack Power for 10 sec. procc equaling around 50 permanent AP on average given the 45 second procc cooldown

For raw values I'd take my gear any day of the week, now you need to add that his weapon choice isn't very good at all as a dagger in the main hand makes your whirlwinds and overpower hit like a wet noodle and that my guild has just downed 4/6 SSC and 1/4 The Eye as opposed to yours raiding Black Temple.


@Topic: I was using a Bloodmoon and a 31/30 specc with imp. Slam for quite some time and recently(=last week) got my Dragonstrike and skilled DW Fury (that also pretty much explains my low hit atm). My damage has increased by quite a bit and, maybe even more importantly, I have much more fun playing my Warrior now. Having up all proccs in a Warrior/Rogue/Druid/Hunter/Shaman group I can get some devastating results (and a lot of aggro ;-)).

Kirnat that pretty much replicates what I've found doing 33/28 but with a sword now,

This is from our Hyjal and BT Clear last week after I got cataclysms edge and went sword spec,

Boomkat is our Fury Warrior using Swiftsteel Bludgeon and Kael Mace,

Kaz'rogal: Wow Web Stats
Bloodboil: (got cratered stupid threat) Wow Web Stats
Illidan: Wow Web Stats
Anetheron: Wow Web Stats
Archimonde: Wow Web Stats
Illidari Council: (Very threat capped) Wow Web Stats

I think over these fights and most that are very melee unfriendly I held my own as a DPS'er never coming too far behind the fury and when I start picking up some T6 for armour pen I think I will be definately competing for the top warrior (might be a slog to beat our rogues)

Noticed your fury warrior only did a small amount of Hamstrings? And a relatively large amount of Heroic strikes, they might eat your DPS down really quick if you dont know what you're doing? Is he an experienced fury warrior or just re-specced to try it out?

Something that i have been kicking around for awhile (and something that i am about to try tonight, unless anyone here has tried it and dismissed it):

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

My gear / setup is ~230 hit, 31% crit, 1850 unbuffed AP (no shout). I have a fully upgraded dragonstrike, and Merciless quickblade (both mongoosed).

My idea here is that with all of the haste effects that i will be getting (DST / Abbacus / Dragonstrike / flurry / etc etc), i will be pushing that quickblade to a SUPER fast sword weapon, meaning a great increase of overall sword spec procs (since it is a static number).

From there, with the OH sword being already a ton faster than the MH, i would push that MH to an extra swing just over 1 in every 10 of its swings (which are already a ton faster due to all of the haste effects). Of course, this entire thing would be even better if dragonstrike was a sword, but i work with what i have to work with.

Anyways, just seeing if anyone has tried this with the type of setup i'm using, and if it is worth losing out on 1 second of WW, imp zerker, and rampage.

I used this build untill we started doing SSC, mainly because we didnt have a shaman for melee before that point. It's a solid build if you're lacking rage, otherwise I found it rather mleh.

Tip: When you dont have Imp zerker stance, I tend to go for 2/3 in TM just to be able to do effective OP's. You might consider it instead of Imp. WW and something else.

17/44, i'm usually never close to being bottomed out on rage in raids. I just saw the possibility, and thought it was an interesting idea, and different than the standard 17/44, and thought it might bring more PvP viability / burst to the scene since in much smaller groups talents like imp zerker stance don't bring as much to the table.

unfortunately, the cookie cutter specs are generally there because that is the best way to max yourself.

Why do you need 2/3 TM for effective OPs? I don't have any problems using Overpower as 18/43 when I have a missstreak or something for regaining Flurry? Or do you mean fighting in Battle Stance mainly and switch for Whirlwind as in the 1500 DPS Level 60 video iirc?

Maybe he's also doing Thunderclap.

I honestly don't know what he was wearing when you armory'd him, but here's the breakdown of his gear as best I can remember.

helm - second sight
neck - choked of serated blades
shoulders - t4
cloak - drape of dark reavers
chest - krakken heart breastplate
bracers - bracers of eradication
gloves - gauntlets of martial perfection
belt - red belt of battle
legs - midnight legguards
boots - fel leather
rings - garona's signet ring/mithril band of the unscarred
trinkets - bladefists/hourglass

weapons (MH/OH) - Talon of Azshara/Tracker's Blade

stats - 1950 AP, 29 crit, 250+ hit (to my memory, could be slightly off)

He's got a big hardon (for obvious reasons) for Dragonspine Trophy, but to my knowledge we've had ONE drop in the all times we've killed Gruul.

Not sure why weapons were reversed in the gorefiend screenshot, though I can tell you that he died at 1% to ghosts.

Not claiming he's amazing, just pointing out that he's not an idiot :P

Thanks, math (obviously) isn't my strong point.

He was obviously wearing his fury gear, and I compared it to mine having no SSC boss drops yet (didn't wanna roll on fury gear as long as I was MS skilled). Considering his position in a Black Temple Raid he should have much better gear than what he has.

It all comes down to what drops, and what doesn't.

For example: in our 8-10 Voidreaver kills we've never seen the Fel-Steel helm.

Also, I don't know about your server, but on ours I don't think we've been able to actually find Kazzak up since our first or second kill, and if we have it hasn't been worth our time to do him because other guilds would wipe us endlessly.

I don't wanna offend anyone but his gear simply isn't on the niveau your guild is on so you probably shouldn't compare your damage to his and generalize it as "MS vs DW Fury".

@Kazzak: We're farming Kazzak every time he spawns, however if other guilds wipe us we simply go on raiding SSC/The Eye.

I agree that his gear isn't top-notch, but at the same time neither is mine.

In my PVE set I'm still wearing 3/5 Arena 2 gear, and the PVP Neck simply because we haven't seen anything better drop. I also have no gear > SSC level.

Regardless, it wasn't my intention to say "omg ms >>>> fury lawls", simply that in this one specific case that I was using as an example it was very competitive.

He does less hamstrings now, because he gains so much rage he doesn't need to waste the gcd on a hamstring when a ww will use the gcd and do more dmg and can also proc wf without losing your swing time

And no he is a very experienced fury warrior for example here he is last night doing 1918 dps on anetheron Wow Web Stats

Killing Gruul since his first incarnation we still only have 1 dragonspine trophy in the whole of the guild, on a rogue and dragonstrike is not the be all and end all of dw weapons

Isnt the point that hamstring can proc wf? (and you should be able to fit in a hamstring between in each cycle so why not do it) Or did they remove that?

Doing well does not mean he is doing his best. No one is suggesting that he would replace WW with hamstring, but hamstringing while BT/WW are on CD is a better use of rage than HS. Hamstring assists flurry dropoffs, which can happen no matter how much crit you get, as well as WF, mongoose, and other such procs.

Hamstring is definately a better use of rage than cleave on single target fights, as it provides 3 extra attacks (proc chances) and 189 damage for 30 rage where a single fully talent cleave adds only +154 and a better hit chance at the cost 20 rage + the wasted swing.

I am a bit iffier on talented heroic strike vs hamstring, but I generally find i have enough rage to use hamstring on spare cooldowns and still have some to dump.

Most interesting about this to me is that hamstring actually scales better with gear in terms of damage per point of rage than either heroic strike or cleave. As more hit gear is acquired beyond the special ability hit cap the effective hit bonus of using HS and cleave goes down, and as a player's damage increases the amount of rage he spends goes up while the amount of damage a WF proc off of his hamstring goes up as well.

Trist: This is exactly what i was posting about above. I respec'd to 25/36 last night (read about what i'm using above), but was unable to raid due to RL aggro. I'm doing SSC tonight, so i'll post the results of the little experiment then.

From what you're writing you don't look like you're having a clue about Fury Warriors yourself. There's a simple priority system involved in playing a Fury Warrior.
1. Priority: Bloodthirst(6 sec. Cooldown)
2. Priority: Rampage(need to renew every ~27 seconds)
3. Priority: Whirlwind(depending on spec 8-10 sec. cooldown)

Every Warrior with at least quested Fury equip can keep these abilities on cooldown, and holding these on cooldown you only have a GCD 1,5/6+1,5/27+1,5/10=0,45 meaning 45% of the time. If you don't fill the rest with Harmstrings you're only wasting damage. For example with a standard setup Harmstring can procc Windfury, Mongoose, Flurry and Dragonspine Trophy/Tsunami Talisman/Hourglass with a pretty good chance each.
Heroic Strike is nowhere near the Damage/Rage of Harmstring and so Harmstring should take priority over it. Your Fury Warrior doesn't use Harmstring at all while he's spamming Heroic Strike so he's simply wasting damage he could possibly do.

Yes, that's how I played during full Naxx and in the start of BC, I considered zerk stance more of a liability(sp?) than a benefit. Now with Imp Zerk I find myself camping the stance, I seldom change to battle to OP unless I've had a non-crit streak. :/ (As you can see in my profile I'm rather low on crit atm.)