• Daboran

A lot depends on your group makeup. If you are in a MT or Feral OT group against hard hitting opponents then the Agi totem (+dodge) helps out your tanks a lot more than Windfury does (assuming your tank is good enough to generate the threat), whilst still providing a not-inconsiderable crit buff to the group.
A Feral tank will obviously always want agi, not only does it provide a huge dodge buff, but threat generation goes stratospheric with the extra crits.

 

Smoker

Correct me if Im wrong but I am not mistaken doesn't +haste rating lower your rage generation at some point, and the T6 instances got lots of gear with haste rating.

That means more white DPS and less yellow DPS, which is good if I've understood you correctly?

 

• Tauftamir

I have two answers to the OP's question.

In regards to the "future" of DPS Warriors, I'm quite certain there will always be a case for them in a raid group. Sure, if your guild is really trying to min-max then Feral Druid B or Protection Paladin C might be a better choice - but for those who don't go to such extremes the DPS warrior will always have a place as a tank up until the point you reach the boss encounter and you want him to DPS.

The builds we have, while having some lacklustre talents - do include some very useful group buffs: Blood Frenzy, Imp. Shouts, TC, Demo etc.. which will likely justify the case of having a DPS warrior in the raid. I won't expound on those further as it's a discussion which has been thoroughly canvassed before.

In regards to the DPS warrior's personal DPS:

This is largely limited by your tank. I read lots of threads, especially on Blizzard forums, asking for us to have a threat wipe or reduction. It's my feeling that we will _never_ get this as it largely distinguishes us from the Rogues. (As an aside, I prefer the "Berserker" aspect of Warrior DPS, than the safety of Rogue damage, so to say).

With BoS, you would have to be pulling out a massive amount of DPS to top a skilled tank - I think the number quoted earlier was around 1700+ DPS?
Since I'm quite confident that you are not near this cap, then reducing your rage by using Heroic Strike is a viable solution to managing your rage gen/skill use.
I personally don't see a problem for DPS warriors now - I do however see a potential issue for tanks if our threat doesn't scale up with the DPS gains made by the raid as a whole - but that's beyond the scope of your question.

There are always going to be "gimmick" fights with aggro reductions on the tank, and so forth which limit the DPS Warrior.

Do you have any postable stats of your TPS in comparison with your tank and your damage output to look at?

 

Crazypie

You have to draw the line somewhere in terms of who is an extremely good source of dps and who is interchangable. Considering my guild can knock off a good 17-20% of hydross's hp in one minute, it's safe to assume:

3.5million hp
3.5*(1-.8)=595k-700k
(595k-700k)/60sec = 9916 - 11666dps/14dps classes= 708 - 833 dps

we have 7 healers, 2 hybrid tanks, and 2 MT's for that fight so 14DPS

700+ dps average on our dps is pretty indicative that our dps doesn't suck, and we're currently working on Leo so we're obviously not a bad guild.

Being top 5 damage done of a guild that can consistently push 700+dps average pretty much guarantees that when a raid is forming, you will selected over somebody who consistently places lower then you. It also means that you become an asset to the guild in terms of dps, that simply isn't a replaceable spot holder, especially considering warriors aren't exactly the biggest source of utility.

It's cool if you believe 2h warriors are viable, but to me atleast, viable doesn't mean much when you strive for being an irreplaceable asset to your guild's dps.

 

• squiffy

Can you really confirm this?

I used to have PH for that exact reason, adding damage and therefore threat to HS (both when I'm MT'ing and OT'ing) but after 2.1 I noticed that mobs I had previously used PH on, from Kara through to Magtheridon, pretty much everything now came up as "immune" to both the slow and the daze.

So I respecced out of it.

 

Tzan

I certainly meant no disrespect to your Guild. I was simply trying to raise the issue that ranking within a certain group is dependent on the group and thus is difficult to use as some type of benchmark of performance.

Is there raw data that shows an optimally geared MS/Flurry Warrior will deliver less DPS than an optimally geared DW Fury Warrior? I've looked at the Warrior spreadsheet and it's possible that such a comparison is there yet beyond my limited ability to effectively use that tool.

I certainly believe DPS Warriors are viable and effective in Raid environments. The fact that there can be a debate regarding the effectiveness of two significantly differing specs supports the idea that there are enough Raids using DPS Warriors that there must be some benefit to including them in Raid rosters.

 

Crazypie

That's the problem. I have yet to see an MS warrior or a 2h fury warrior pull off significant dps in a raid setting consistently. The only time a ms warrior shines is if there is a gimmick to a fight requiring quick spurts of aoe like on hydross. However, fury warriors pull off amazing damage whether it be single target, or aoe situations since they have cleave almost taped down with the excess of rage available.

I have seen numerous screenshots of said fury warriors. Just recently, prophet from curse was 2nd on the dmeter in their Hyjal kill shot which is solid proof of fury warrior validity. I have yet to see such screenshots on meaningful content. A screenshot where a warrior is buffed up the wazoo and whailing on gruul that's been farmed for months isn't really useful in terms of gauging a warrior's damage potential. Anybody can do relatively good damage on farmed content when people do not feel the need to push the limits of their potential.

 

Randor

I think a major misconception people have here is the arms vs. fury argument, which is stale, in my view.

If anything, having an Arms and Fury warrior in a raid party seems to have an synergistic result.

Can Arms do as much dps as Fury over time? Usually not, but Arms brings things to the table (and to the raid) than Fury doesn't.

It's not always about who can sit higher on the damage meters if a build is bringing something worthwhile to a raid and holding their own when it does come to damage. And 2hand fury and MS/deathwish (both with imp Slam) can hold their own, these days.

It doesn't mean one is "better" than the other, it just means there's more options and flavors to go around.

This is a computer-generated message and needs no signature.

 

panny

If this is in reference to my WWSs, the last Gruul kill was the first post-patch, we had lost our best healer, had people in completely new to the fight (and 25 mans in general), etcetc. It took about six tries to kill him so people were definitely not slacking.

No opinion either way on the conclusions (never played a warrior past level 20), just wanted to clear that up.

 

Crazypie

It's not. I just don't really see gruul as a great benchmark anymore. It's widely farmed and using gear farmed post gruul is a bit redundant.

 

bimmy

@ OP: You've said our limiting factor in damage output is being able to make our rage worth more damage per point. You're already doing this with any gear upgrade... In my experience the factor which most limits damage is threat. I get grouped with a shaman and druid for windfury and 5% crit, which keep me near 100 rage at all times. Raid buffed I sit at 2500 ap (without BS/Rampage up) and 37% crit. I can keep up with any DPSer for good amount of time till I have to auto attack to let the tank build up threat (this is not going all out either). Alternatively I can DPS till I pull aggro and die to wipe my threat completely.

There will always be room for one or two DPS warriors in raids and there will be things we're amazing for, like Vashj stage 2 (on elementals). Personally though, gear has taken me to a point where I can no longer DPS merrily the whole fight, I reach the threat ceiling too fast. I'm not trying to brag - I really think once a warrior gets very good gear their threat production is too high. It doesn't look like things will change much in the future unless: a) [my] tanks can start generating a lot more threat b) warriors get a threat reduction/transfer ability/talent or a buff to the passive threat reduction of berserker stance. Has anyone tried Prism of Inner Calm? Is -54 threat from all crits enough to lengthen our DPS time?

 

suicuique

You have to keep in mind though, that using Heroic Strikes as a rage dump will result in you getting aggro way lower than doing 1700+ DPS. The pure aggro component of heroic strikes is non insignificant.

 

suicuique

I've observed the same. Most of the mobs which piercing howl had an effect on, are now labeled as "immune".

I'm too going to spec out of it. Such a shame

 

ikillyouheal

Bimmy: I agree with what you said, it feels like our base TPS just escalates, meanwhile the tanks just gets more avoidance and less TPS. I sure hope the Prism of Inner Calm will sort this, but It'd be stupid if you needed a certain trinket in order to play a class to it full potential.

[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.

 

Crazypie

I was really hoping for that too, but the trinket in its current form seems EXTREMELY underpowered.

Prism of Inner Calm
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 70
Equip: Reduces the threat from your harmful critical strikes.
Equip: <Crit Threat Reduction Spell>

Melee Crits = -54 threat
Spell crits = -216 threat

Assuming you use a 2.6 1hander in your mh, and a gladiator weapon in your offhand, you'll have:

2.6/1.3 = 2 second attack speed flurried
1.5/1.3 = 1.15 second attack speed flurried

60/2 + 60/1.15 = 82 swings white
60/6 = 10 Bloodthirsts
60/10 = 6 Whirlwinds

(82+10+6)=98 swings per minute * 1.2 (windfury) = 117.6 swings per minute

assume a 40% crit rate (very hard to achieve)

117.6 * .4 = 47.04 crits * -54 = 2540 threat per minute reduced / 60 = -42 TPS

Things to consider: I did not include miss rate, dodge penalties, or glancing blows which would just hurt the prism even more so in terms of viability. It's funny that a trinket with item level 128 would be less efficient then a drop from Fankriss which has its on use @ 50% less threat even at 70.

I really hope it gets buffed.

 

suicuique

I for one think that aggro being the cap for DPS warriors is quite a clever design decision.
DPS classes with aggro control should have an advantage on hand: rogues, hunters, even locks and mages (shatter and invisibility)

And I'm not saying this out of spite. At the end of vanilla WoW I was one of the DPS warriors (fury specced, with ALL the good gear up to 4HM), so I know how it is to be threat capped.
It still does have its use though. Namely most of the zerg encounters (think NEF, Fankriss) or bosses without aggro caps (C'Thun). And I'm pretty sure equivalent use will be found in BC (have pulled Vashj only once last week, serious attempts to follow the coming days).

 

suicuique

I disagree.
Dodges/parries/misses and glances do not "eat into" your crits.
UNLESS you are crit capped.

So the TPS reduction would not be lessened.

I agree though that it is lackluster for melees.

 

Crazypie

I'm pretty shady on the attack table so please correct me if i'm wrong.

Pretend I have a certain amount of hit, say +10 with talents. I swing 100 times and I get 40 crits because my crit rate is 40%. Now pretend I hit 95 times because I drop 5 hit from gear. Does that mean I will be at 38 crits or will my crit stay at 40 crits? I honestly haven't looked into the hit table in a long time and I probably am overlooking something.

 

suicuique

You will still crit 40 times.
Crit is a portion of ALL swings (including misses/dodges/parries). Not a portion of connecting swings.

misses/parries/dodges/blocks/glances first eat into your "normal" hits.
Considering that glancing chance was reduced to something like 20%. And assuming low +10% hit on DW fury warriors, we'd have (at worst):

15%miss, 6% dodge, 6%parry, 6% block, 20% glance

when attacking from the front.

This worst case would still leave you with a 47% crit chance before being "crit capped" (read: crit being eaten way).
Attacking from the back (which should be the norm) and having more +hit (pre BC I was really comfortable at +15% hit levels) would further increase the crit cap.

 

Calgar

I'm not understanding how all you guys are having agro issues. Are you not getting salvation?

- Our MT generates around 750-850 TPS usually.
- Fury/battle stance is 20% less threat
- Salv is 30% less threat

If i'm not mistaken, they multiply to a 56% agro reduction. So if the tank is doing 800 TPS you would have to pull 1400+ DPS to catch up to him. (Obviously that's if you aren't laying down heroic strikes as a rage dump though) I don't see how any warrior can sustain 1400 dps. Most of the WWS and damage meters i have seen show warriors being from 900-1100 dps, depending on the fight.

The only other thing i wanted to throw in, is with the way that paladin buffs work it's rare/impossible to get a 15 minute salv, as it would be on the MT too. So I end up with a 5 min salv usually, and have issues with it running out when we get to deathwish/recklessness/execute range.

Just from personal experience, the only time i ever have to consider threat is if i don't have salvation, or it's a twitchy agro fight with agro reduction or something.

Any other thoughts on this?

 

suicuique

Let the tanks click it off.

 

• Chicken

The problem isn't so much clicking it off on the tanks as that (most) Paladins will do Greater Blessing of Light instead of Greater Blessing of Salvation. I know I do.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Deris

Have the Paladin that is doing Light or BoSanc on the warriors make macros for each DPS Warrior that needs induvidual Salv, and they can recast midfight without skipping a beat.

 

Apate

I was starting to feel like PH was becoming a bit too useful. I don't have it in my spec and often felt like it would've been really ehlp. I know it's selfish, but I am glad that it has its usefulness affected a tad.

That's part of the difficulty. Even Cleave can output a decent amount of hate. What do you do as a rage dump when hamstring isn't enough? If you have to resort to lower damage abilities or to nothing, you're still threat limited. I'd agree with people above though, there's no reason that warriors need to top DMs in threat sensitive encounters. My only disappointment with this arrangement is that when we upgrade our DPS, it doesn't help us everywhere.

See you, auntie.

 

bimmy

I DPS as 2H fury and the cycle I use is BT, WW, 2xSlam while those are on cooldown, repeat. I'm going to show a very idealized twelve seconds of damage, but if my math and understanding of how to do this aren't wrong (they may well be) you'll see 1400+ DPS is easy to sustain.

Assuming full raid buffs, mongoose and flurry both up (2.82 attack speed for Lionheart), crits only on special attacks (I'm using lower end numbers from what I usually crit on specials and a constant 1100 non crit for auto attacks), and ignoring lag with the global cooldown this is what I get.

0s: 1100 auto, 2800 BT (6s cd)
1.5s: 2600 WW (8s cd)
2.82s: 1100 auto
3.0-3.5s: Slam cast; 2700
4.5-5.0s: Slam cast; 2700, swing timer is reset at 4.5s (or does it reset when slam finishes casting?)
6s: 2800 BT
7.32s: 1100 auto
9.5s: 2600 WW
10.14s: 1100 auto
11-11.5s: Slam cast; 2700
12s: BT is back up
At this point cooldowns get further apart so you might spam slam for a bit, but you can see what the cycle idea is.
This is 23,300 damage over 12 seconds, or 1941 DPS. Sure I have specials critting 100% of the time and the crit rate overall is 60 odd percent, but I excluded windfury procs so don't fault me :P

Perhaps it's wrong that warriors can do this much damage and threat should be our limiter, but even DRUIDS a hybrid have cower and I've never seen a cat in danger of pulling aggro.