Rogue's are only in the raid for one thing only, Melee dps. Generally i would never take a dagger or sword over a rogue ever. Their is also quite a few decent axes and maces available for warriors.
Problem is: most endgame weapons are either pretty fast or damn slow. Unless you want to relegate the warriors to axes only they have to get a shot at least on non dagger stuff (daggers a imho a very special case since rogues are the only class relying on a specific type of weapon for special attacks).
(I've played a rogue for about 2 years before rerolling so I know both sides of the story).
If I were you I would consider talking to your new rogues so that they do the same as your older rogues. Talking about loot beforehands often spares you a lot of drama. If they don't cooperate...well then weapons are fair game for both I guess.
Don't see it as a "Give it to a Rogue or to a Warrior" but see it as a "Does it benefit Player 1 (who may be a Rogue) or Player 2 (who may be a Warrior) more". However Warriors have one big extra in weapon choice: Dragonstrike is easily attainable and the best weapon up to Illidan, Swiftsteel Bludgeon as a Mace isn't useful to Rogues at all but it's the best Offhand for Fury Warriors. So in Endgame Raiding I'm passing on everything but Swiftsteel Bludgeon and the Warglaives, which are, no doubt, the best weapons ingame for Rogues and Fury Warriors.
Don't see it as a "Give it to a Rogue or to a Warrior" but see it as a "Does it benefit Player 1 (who may be a Rogue) or Player 2 (who may be a Warrior) more". However Warriors have one big extra in weapon choice: Dragonstrike is easily attainable and the best weapon up to Illidan, Swiftsteel Bludgeon as a Mace isn't useful to Rogues at all but it's the best Offhand for Fury Warriors. So in Endgame Raiding I'm passing on everything but Swiftsteel Bludgeon and the Warglaives, which are, no doubt, the best weapons ingame for Rogues and Fury Warriors.
Most endgame pve rogues are combat sword specced so their best option is the sword obviously, leaving the mace and axe to warriors. Should be a no-brainer really, unless neither your rogues or warriors have any common sense whatsoever.
Most endgame pve rogues are combat sword specced so their best option is the sword obviously, leaving the mace and axe to warriors. Should be a no-brainer really, unless neither your rogues or warriors have any common sense whatsoever.
The Swords have Rogue stats anyway, so we should be happy about our free Axes and Maces noone else wants. Arena weapons are a very good alternative or blacksmithing.
Slow MH is still better for us.
Why exactly, because of WW and Cleave? Faster is much better for Heroic Strike, and while yes, "threat" is our primary limitation, spamming Hamstring was producing a ton of threat for really good gains when you used a slow MH, but this isn't true anymore. Haste will have a larger effect on a slower weapon, but does that necessarily mean there will be a significant difference in overall DPS compared to a faster weapon?
Now if you had some obscene haste gear and could get that 3.0 speed weapon down to 1.5 or even 2.0 it would look different. Obviously you are getting larger returns from haste on the slower weapon than you are the faster, but before that point?
How much haste do you think you need before a slow main hand would over take a fast one? Ball park is fine I'm just interested in seeing the theory crafting behind that statement.
Without doing the research (I'm a 2h warrior) I'd chose Rising Tide and Swiftsteel as an offhand. Would you go for duel Swiftsteels?
A quicker main hand weapon will get less of a return (per hit) on natural AP from weapon speed, but it will get the same bonus from the AP from the Windfury attack. Take two identical DPS weapons (say a 100 DPS 3.0 weapon and a 100 DPS 1.5 speed weapon). The 1.5 speed weapon simply dominates in both Heroic efficiency as well as Windfury attacks.
Now if you had some obscene haste gear and could get that 3.0 speed weapon down to 1.5 or even 2.0 it would look different. Obviously you are getting larger returns from haste on the slower weapon than you are the faster, but before that point?
But it will also cause less proccs from PPM based sources such as DST and mongoose.
Dual Bludgeons would be an interesting choice for sure. Take the Rising Tide for example. To get it to the 1.5 speed (discounting the 2% haste making it 1.47), you would need approximately 73% haste. 25% of that can come from Flurry (although it will not be up 100% of the time), so you would have to make up (over) 48% haste somewhere, most likely a combination of a static haste rating, Dragonspine proc and Mongoose.
The Tide with 73% haste will get 17 additional auto attacks per minute, whereas the Bludgeon would gain 28 (if it's possible to actually swing below 1.0 speeds, otherwise it gains 20).
Using 4000 generic AP:
@1.5 speed the Rising Tide outputs an additional 17,051 damage per minute
@0.87 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additonal 16,240 damage per minute
@1.0 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additional 11,600 damage per minute
Clearly the Rising Tide puts the haste to much greater use. How easy is it to get 73% continual haste though? Also, the gap between the .87 speed Bludgeon compared to the 1.5 speed Tide would most certainly be eclipsed through Windfury procs as well as a lot more Heroic Strikes. It's not so apparent with the 1.0 speed Bludgeon.
Let's look at this again using a more accessible (for non BT clearing guilds) 40% "constant" haste. Yes I realize you have to actually be in BT to get either weapon, but that's not the point.
@1.86 speed the Rising Tide outputs an additional 9,030 damage per minute.
@1.07 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additional 9,265 damage per minute.
This is just the increased damage from auto attacks. If someone wants to take the time to find out the additional damage per minute each weapon at each speeds gains from Windfury as well as Heroic Strikes (assuming no rage starvation or threat limit) they can.
Why exactly, because of WW and Cleave? Faster is much better for Heroic Strike, and while yes, "threat" is our primary limitation, spamming Hamstring was producing a ton of threat for really good gains when you used a slow MH, but this isn't true anymore. Haste will have a larger effect on a slower weapon, but does that necessarily mean there will be a significant difference in overall DPS compared to a faster weapon?
A quicker main hand weapon will get less of a return (per hit) on natural AP from weapon speed, but it will get the same bonus from the AP from the Windfury attack. Take two identical DPS weapons (say a 100 DPS 3.0 weapon and a 100 DPS 1.5 speed weapon). The 1.5 speed weapon simply dominates in both Heroic efficiency as well as Windfury attacks.
Now if you had some obscene haste gear and could get that 3.0 speed weapon down to 1.5 or even 2.0 it would look different. Obviously you are getting larger returns from haste on the slower weapon than you are the faster, but before that point?
I've seen someone say before that slow weapons benefit more from haste than fast weapons, but why? If you got x% passive haste, then your white dps is increased by x%, regardless of the frequency it's created with. So haste should yield similar returns for slow weapons and fast weapons.
The argument that faster weapons benefit more from the extra attack power of windfury is invalid, as extra attacks through Windfury are not normalized as far as I know.
So what makes a difference in weapon speed choice is whirlwind favoring slow, vs. cheaper and more heroic strikes favoring a fast mainhand. Or did I miss something?
But it will also cause less proccs from PPM based sources such as DST and mongoose.
I thought the DST had no internal cooldown. I understand a slower weapon is going to have a higher chance per hit to proc, thus feeding itself, yet is a slow/fast going to create that much more uptime than fast/fast, and is it going to be able to overcome fast/fast in terms of WF and HS?
This seems like the best thread to ask this: does anyone have any parses of them using the BT trinket? On a whim I used it for all of Archimonde and some SSC bosses tonight, and the proc seems more like 50% than 25%, but my sample size is still really small
Dual ...
@1.86 speed the Rising Tide outputs an additional 9,030 damage per minute.
@1.07 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additional 9,265 damage per minute.
This is just the increased damage from auto attacks. If someone wants to take the time to find out the additional damage per minute each weapon at each speeds gains from Windfury as well as Heroic Strikes (assuming no rage starvation or threat limit) they can.
The difference in those numbers arises mainly from rounding errors in your calculations. Having done the same with some more accuracy, I arrived at a difference of only a bit over 3 damage per minute (probably still due to rounding). Same holds for the other example in your post.
As said in the post before, haste and weapon speed have no synergy with windfury at all any more. It's true that for procs with a static proc chance, haste yields a bigger return in procs for faster weapons, but this effect should be marginal at best.
The argument that faster weapons benefit more from the extra attack power of windfury is invalid, as extra attacks through Windfury are not normalized as far as I know.
Yeah, I'm going to chalk this one up to simply being tired. That, and having this screwed up idea that somehow the additional AP was being factored in as some seperate damage source instead of simply adding it to your base AP before weapon speed is considered.
So in the end it seems to come down to bigger WW/Cleave/PPM vs steadier incoming rage and more efficient Heroic Strikes. I'm not sure how much of a real difference this would be, but it seems like you might have the potential for less glances with fast/fast. If rage was not an issue for some reason and you could Heroic each swing with a slower weapon, it would end up being the same, yet less threat. And then there is always the Prism of Inner Calm to consider...if you'd actually really consider using it.
Well, after reading some here. When they are changing WF, you would say that it is better to use 2 fast wpns instead of the usual combo with slower MH.
Now I have Rising Tide and the trash mace from BT, you guys think I would get more dps if I get one more 1,5 speed mace after patch?
I am a bit confused
So in the end it seems to come down to bigger WW/Cleave/PPM vs steadier incoming rage and more efficient Heroic Strikes.
I still think that WW/PPM is more worth, especially if you have DST/Mongoose etc.
[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.
This seems like the best thread to ask this: does anyone have any parses of them using the BT trinket? On a whim I used it for all of Archimonde and some SSC bosses tonight, and the proc seems more like 50% than 25%, but my sample size is still really small
[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.
Heya, I've been visiting these forums for awhile, great info and people here, haven't posted before, just kinda a reader, but I have a lil question thats a lil off topic of where this thread is now, but didnt wanna start a new thread for it.
Can anyone confirm or deny if piercing howl does keep a daze effect on raid bosses for 6 seconds that increase HS damage? Thanks
Heya, I've been visiting these forums for awhile, great info and people here, haven't posted before, just kinda a reader, but I have a lil question thats a lil off topic of where this thread is now, but didnt wanna start a new thread for it.
Can anyone confirm or deny if piercing howl does keep a daze effect on raid bosses for 6 seconds that increase HS damage? Thanks
As far as I know they removed that in the latest raid patch.
[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.
So in the end it seems to come down to bigger WW/Cleave/PPM vs steadier incoming rage and more efficient Heroic Strikes. I'm not sure how much of a real difference this would be, but it seems like you might have the potential for less glances with fast/fast. If rage was not an issue for some reason and you could Heroic each swing with a slower weapon, it would end up being the same, yet less threat. And then there is always the Prism of Inner Calm to consider...if you'd actually really consider using it.
Two things about this. With a slower weapon, you'll make much more damage non-glancing per (threat intensive) Heroic Strike than with fast weapons. And more focus on HS works against the prism bonus of using two fast weapons. With Salvation, Heroic Strike extra threat is fairly close to the aggro reduction of the prism on crits.
I'd add some practical experience if I could, but before I try Fury again I need another weapon. Will try picking up a second [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] as well as something that's slow.
Last edited by Amorpheus : 08/16/07 at 10:17 AM.
Reason: Wrong Reasoning
"You are better than I am," Inigo admitted. "So it seems. But if that is true, then why are you smiling?"
"Because," Inigo answered, "I know something you don't know." "And what is that?" asked the man in black. "I'm not left-handed."
In the past week I've spent some time with my weapons I posted before (2.6, 1.5, 1.5). I've observed that my DPS is still higher with fast/slow after the Windfury nerf. I've put some more thought into the theory behind it that I explain below.
Heroic Strike impact
With the slow MH you get more our of your heroic strike. Here's why:
1) The bonus from impale (+10% total dmg on crit) gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slow weapon.
2) Heroic strike increases the chance to hit. This gets bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon.
3) Heroic strike cannot glance. This gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon.
3) Heroic strike increases damage by X. (Edit) "The damage-per-threat and damage-per-rage" is independent of weapon speed.
Reasons 1-3 make heroic strike with a slower weapon more rage and threat efficient. If you are in a situation with no threat limitations and plenty of excess rage, a slower weapon will allow you to use bonus (4) much more quickly.
Whirlwind
Whirlwind is still 4% of my damage with a slow MH. Using a fast MH can almost cut that damage in half.
Flurry-benefit per instant attack
Slow/Fast (2.6/1.5) has an average attack speed of 1.025 sec/hit. Fast/fast has an average attack speed of 0.75 secs/hit. An instant attack that crits (BS, whirlwind, hamstring, execute) will generate Flurry. The flurry will last longer with slow/fast.
During execute phase, it's important to generate rage as fast as possible between the global cooldowns of execute, so fast/fast is clearly the superior option. Heroic strike and whirlwind are not used. Bloodthirst is still more dmg/rage efficient than execute and is weapon speed independent.
Using slow/fast (2.6/1.5) from 100->20% and fast/fast (1.5/1.5) from 19%->0 has given me the best results.
Natural's results fit with my expectations of the what would be expected. I've thought about grabbing a second Bludgeon to MH during execute range, but I hate to take off Dragonstrike because a proc during execute range is a massive dps boost, however if it doesnt proc during execute obviously the Bludgeon is better.
Everyone is saying "Dragonstrike is amazing!"...seems like a recent development. How much better does the haste proc make it then say, the S2 merciless One-handed axe? Or the T3 axe smith one-hander?
I think i even saw someone say it's the best 1 hander until illidan's legendaries?
Actually, Fast/Fast isn't even better than Slow/Fast in Execute range when you have either enough Haste Rating to get your mainhand under 1,5 speed or get enough rage through Offhand hits to spam Execute non-stop.
08/15/07, 1:06 PM
