Actually, Fast/Fast isn't even better than Slow/Fast in Execute range when you have either enough Haste Rating to get your mainhand under 1,5 speed or get enough rage through Offhand hits to spam Execute non-stop.
I don't think it's feasible for a 1.5 offhand to reliably generate 10 rage per attack. I'd have to check the rage formula.
Even if you get enough haste to drop the mainhand speed below 1.5 (which takes a lot of haste)--you can still miss.
I don't think it's feasible for a 1.5 offhand to generate 12 rage every attack. Do you have reason to believe it's possible?
Even if you get enough haste to drop the mainhand speed below 1.5 (which takes a lot of haste)--you can still miss.
Look at my weapon combination, I can spam Execute non-stop without ever getting too low on rage. I must admit it wasn't as reliable when I had 0/2 Imp. Execute, but with 2/2 it's totally possible.
Everyone is saying "Dragonstrike is amazing!"...seems like a recent development. How much better does the haste proc make it then say, the S2 merciless One-handed axe? Or the T3 axe smith one-hander?
I think i even saw someone say it's the best 1 hander until illidan's legendaries?
Dragonstrike was always amazing, it's just that those of us using it kept it on the down low to keep our edge
And it is the best MH until Illidan's legendaries hands down, no question.
Look at my weapon combination, I can spam Execute non-stop without ever getting too low on rage. I must admit it wasn't as reliable when I had 0/2 Imp. Execute, but with 2/2 it's totally possible.
Yeah, with Dragonspine and Dragonstrike I can imagine getting enough haste for that most of the time. In the end, we're essentially only talking about optimizing a few tenths of a second per execute. I'm sure the marginal benefit of improving this is pretty small. In your case, I would probably keep the dragonstrike for the haste rating during execute anyway.
In my case, I am switching out a [Rising Tide] for [Tracker's Blade] in the MH during execute, so I don't have much to lose.
Yeah, with Dragonspine and Dragonstrike I can imagine getting enough haste for that most of the time. In the end, we're essentially only talking about optimizing a few tenths of a second per execute. I'm sure the marginal benefit of improving this is pretty small. In your case, I would probably keep the dragonstrike for the haste rating during execute anyway.
In my case, I am switching out a [Rising Tide] for [Tracker's Blade] in the MH during execute, so I don't have much to lose.
I forgot mentioning it's a big difference if you have a shaman or not as well. 20% more Mainhand swings and Heroism can boost your rage generation significantly. In your place I'd swap, too; you even get better stats swapping your Main-hand weapon.
Using myself as an example, i'm using Rising Tide mainhand Swiftsteel offhand, 96 haste rating from gear. 17/44 fairly cookie cutter build with 5/5 Flurry...
Just calculating for the mainhand - with flurry up..
So provided I get heroism during execute phase, my main hand should swing quicker than the global cooldown. Not counting the fact that I might be under the effect of Dragonspine or a Mongoose proc (or Haste potions).
Quick back of the envelope math tells me that if I don't/can't get Heroism during execute phase I should drop a Haste potion (400 haste rating for 15 sec) to achieve a similar effect.
Execute damage is purely based on the amount of rage you feed into it. The amount of damage you get off of the first 10 rage (improved) is better than what you get out of extra rage so it is better to chain execute every 1.5 seconds than to save rage. Most of this can be deduced simply from reading the tooltip.
so my dim knowledge about reading the tooltip was right =p
execute = get weapons to generate rage (fast, I guess)...
but not every tooltips say exactly the calculations of the skill, thats why I humbly asked...
like, ms tooltip says nothing about the normalized weapon's speed getting into the calculation, does it?
if it does I apologize for notreading them properly =/
I've been having some threat issues lately on boss fights, and have been wondering how many of you deal with your threat issues. I die weekly on Void Reaver (even with very few heroic strikes and a paltry ~840 DPS) and also have issues on a few other fights. I've tried avoiding Heroic Strike altogether, but that usually results in my sitting with a full rage bar for 70% of the fight. I make sure that I have enough rage to dump into Bloodthirst and Whirlwind when cooldowns are up, and if I have more than 60 rage I'll toss out HS.
I've dropped 12 Agi on my cloak on favor of Subtlety, always ask for BoS, have had some Shrouding Potions made up, and have considered dropping Bloodlust Brooch for Timelapse Shard. I've also tried not doing any DPS until after the boss loses 5%+ of its health, but that doesn't seem to help all that much either. We have some pretty good DPS machines in our raid, and if I don't start with them at the beginning of the fight, it's hard for me to keep up sometimes. I'm a bit tired of holding back 90% of the time, and I figured that this problem will just get worse as I get better gear so I thought I would ask for some suggestions now.
Using myself as an example, i'm using Rising Tide mainhand Swiftsteel offhand, 96 haste rating from gear. 17/44 fairly cookie cutter build with 5/5 Flurry...
Just calculating for the mainhand - with flurry up..
So provided I get heroism during execute phase, my main hand should swing quicker than the global cooldown. Not counting the fact that I might be under the effect of Dragonspine or a Mongoose proc (or Haste potions).
Quick back of the envelope math tells me that if I don't/can't get Heroism during execute phase I should drop a Haste potion (400 haste rating for 15 sec) to achieve a similar effect.
Heroism actually drops the global cooldown under 1.5s, so with heroism you'd still need a proc or a haste potion to spam execute every GCD.
I've been having some threat issues lately on boss fights, and have been wondering how many of you deal with your threat issues. I die weekly on Void Reaver (even with very few heroic strikes and a paltry ~840 DPS) and also have issues on a few other fights. I've tried avoiding Heroic Strike altogether, but that usually results in my sitting with a full rage bar for 70% of the fight. I make sure that I have enough rage to dump into Bloodthirst and Whirlwind when cooldowns are up, and if I have more than 60 rage I'll toss out HS.
I've dropped 12 Agi on my cloak on favor of Subtlety, always ask for BoS, have had some Shrouding Potions made up, and have considered dropping Bloodlust Brooch for Timelapse Shard. I've also tried not doing any DPS until after the boss loses 5%+ of its health, but that doesn't seem to help all that much either. We have some pretty good DPS machines in our raid, and if I don't start with them at the beginning of the fight, it's hard for me to keep up sometimes. I'm a bit tired of holding back 90% of the time, and I figured that this problem will just get worse as I get better gear so I thought I would ask for some suggestions now.
Thanks!
Void reaver is a special case because of the threat reduction on the knockback.
I was lucky enough to pick up a [Fetish of the Sand Reaver] back in AQ40. It's still extremely effective at reducing threat if you pair it with bloodlust/deathwish. However, only find it necessary in a few fights. In SSC I use it for Leotharas and Lurker. On void reaver, the entire melee group should get tranqil air and threat shouldn't be a problem. In Hyjal/BT I only use it on Bloodboil and RoS.
I would recommend looking for a slower mainhand weapon for the reasons I listed in my earlier post. Also I would make sure that the tanks are getting chain mis-directed during the fight and that the tank is playing correctly. You should only be having threat issues on a few fights, some of which are done so by design.
I've been having some threat issues lately on boss fights, and have been wondering how many of you deal with your threat issues. I die weekly on Void Reaver (even with very few heroic strikes and a paltry ~840 DPS) and also have issues on a few other fights. I've tried avoiding Heroic Strike altogether, but that usually results in my sitting with a full rage bar for 70% of the fight. I make sure that I have enough rage to dump into Bloodthirst and Whirlwind when cooldowns are up, and if I have more than 60 rage I'll toss out HS.
IMO if you are pulling aggro on VR with just 840DPS your tanks are the problem, assuming you have Salv.
How many tanks do you have fighting for aggro? When we have 3 good ones, I wont pull aggro. We have actually done it with just 1 tank before and I obviously had troubles then, but not until the very end.
Our MT has really gone out of his way to work on threat, mixing gear up when he can afford to, and it really, really shows. Of everything we have killed, I can go balls out (again, assuming I have Salv) on pretty much every fight except Gorefiend.
Natural: Yeah, I wasn't ever lucky enough to pick one up. I think the entire time that we were working on AQ40 we only had one or two drop, and they went to casters.
I'm using [Dragonmaw] in the main hand right now, not sure if there's anything better or slower that I can get ahold of atm.
I know the Void Reaver fight has some aggro mechanics that tend to make the fight more quirky, but I will suggest my Shaman drop TA totem next time to see if it will help. It would actually be nice to use my trinkets and Deathwish for once. Chain Misdirecting is also a good idea, I'll ask our resident Hunters to give it a try next week.
Hozz: We usually have three tanks for that fight, and they all do a good job at holding aggro. It just seems that when VR winds down below 15% or so, the threat starts to get a little bit funky. Same with Morogrim.
I would really like to start using Insane Strength and Haste pots on a regular basis for boss fights, but I am afraid of the consequences.
What about ability rotations? Right now I am saving rage for Bloodthirst and WW, then dumping extra rage into HS if I have over 60. Should I just be dumping that rage into Hamstring instead for extra Flurry procs?
This seems like the best thread to ask this: does anyone have any parses of them using the BT trinket? On a whim I used it for all of Archimonde and some SSC bosses tonight, and the proc seems more like 50% than 25%, but my sample size is still really small
each heal from "fire blood" is a proc of the trinket
if this is common knowledge or something then w/e. It does make the trinket a bit more appealing, though
I wore the trinket for a bunch of SSC/TK content: Chocula - WWS
That looks like just a bit under 1/3rd of my MS's proccing it
here's the rub, though: A lot of those were while tanking, so I was using a fast mace to mortal strike with. None of this is really enough to be conclusive or even prove the proc rate is definitely above 25%, but is it possible it might be a PPM proc that only goes off on mortal strikes?
I wore the trinket for a bunch of SSC/TK content: Chocula - WWS
That looks like just a bit under 1/3rd of my MS's proccing it
here's the rub, though: A lot of those were while tanking, so I was using a fast mace to mortal strike with. None of this is really enough to be conclusive or even prove the proc rate is definitely above 25%, but is it possible it might be a PPM proc that only goes off on mortal strikes?
Actually looking at the VR and morogrim parses this probably isn't the case, I was using a 2H fulltime for both of those
Regardless it seems like it's definitely a lot worse than Bloodlust Brooch for everything except super loatheb. I'm just gonna stop trying
Heroic Strike impact
With the slow MH you get more our of your heroic strike. Here's why:
1) The bonus from impale (+10% total dmg on crit) gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slow weapon.
2) Heroic strike increases the chance to hit. This gets bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon.
3) Heroic strike cannot glance. This gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon.
3) Heroic strike increases damage by X. This is independent of weapon speed.
Reasons 1-3 make heroic strike with a slower weapon more rage and threat efficient. If you are in a situation with no threat limitations and plenty of excess rage, a slower weapon will allow you to use bonus (4) much more quickly.
I disagree with point (4) (labeled wrongly as a second (3) ) of yours.
The flat heroic strike bonus favours fast weapons.
The lessened miss chance, non glancing and impale work on fast weapons the same as they do on slow weapons, as they effectively modify your DPS value and do not favour fast or slow weapons. The point you make though and which I want to emphasize again: heroic striking with a slow weapon applies the main benefits (non glancing, less "miss") to a greater portion of your total damage (see it as a granularity thing).
Keep in mind that in exptreme cases (think Loatheb pre BC) Heroic striking with a fast weapon will produce way more damage than a slow weapon. At a heavy cost though: it produces a ton more aggro.
If rage and aggro is an issue, heroic striking with a slow weapon is better. I agree there.
EDIT: On second thought, I'm not so sure that heroic striking with a slow weapon is prefered in low rage situations. "Slow" means the benefits apply to a greater portion of your damage, but it also does amplify the "hidden" rage cost of a Heroic strike, as more white damage is lost from generating rage.
Would that not leave only the "less aggro" as a benefit of using slow weapons for a heroic strike?
I'm a little confused for now.
Last edited by suicuique : 08/17/07 at 6:51 AM.
Reason: second thought
What do you think about spamming Hamstring Rank 1 or Rank 2 if you dont have more than lets say 50 Rage?
Normally im starting with Heroic Strike when my rage bar gets over 45 so there is still a base rage vor BT and WW!
Should i start spamming Hamstring to keep Flurry up or not?
When i just want to keep Flurry up i even dont need Rank 3 or Rank 4, because of their Bonus Threat!
Thanks for your help!
I dont have the gear to discuss in that Debate if its better to have fast/fast Weapon Combination or slow/fast, but im still a fan of Dragonstrike/Merciless OH till i get some better choices!
Would that not leave only the "less aggro" as a benefit of using slow weapons for a heroic strike?
That's how I see it. Clearly a static damage modifier is going to do more damage if it's being applied many more times due not only to speed but efficiency in cost. As it was previously stated though, this will output a lot more threat over a much slower weapon. If you are on a fight where threat is not going to be an issue, you would probably do better with fast/fast. On any threat limited fight, you would be hampering your potential damage dealt greatly. Same theory applies to putting a Thunderfury in your off hand. Simply shutting off attack isn't the solution.
Actually looking at the VR and morogrim parses this probably isn't the case, I was using a 2H fulltime for both of those
Regardless it seems like it's definitely a lot worse than Bloodlust Brooch for everything except super loatheb. I'm just gonna stop trying
Yeah, I tried the trinket for some Archimonde wipes(fun fun), and came to the conclusion that the only usefull part of the trinket is the on-hit-heal effect. Now it's in my bank waiting for the next Loatheb.
[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.
I picked this mace up the other day and straight after the mace from supremus dropped for us i passed as they didn't look much different but i have been thinking about it a bit more. Also considering offhanding a slow weapon, Not sure how it would work out.
The STR part of the proc should be passive and the proc should be the heal part, same as now. As much of an improvement as that change would be, the trinket still wouldnt be equipped for most fights assuming you had your choice of trinkets that drop up to that point.
08/16/07, 4:02 PM
