The trinket seems to be put in place to guarantee that a class has a B- trinket if your guild has had somewhat bad luck on melee trinket drops. 3 rogues, one hunter and another dps war are still all salivating at DPS trinkets in our guild. The fact that if I was still tanking everyday that I would still be using Styleen's, given the one Hydross drop went to a warrior who had no Styleen's, makes me think they are trying to slowly scale trinkets away from doing something different for you from normal or way beyond normal, and instead to being like another piece of armor.

That being said, I've been wondering if Haste is something that has increased in usefulness for a 2h warrior with the W.F. change, and if I should try to farm Gruul's since we do not kill him on a weekly basis anymore.

We have truly awful luck on trinkets. 1 DST in 20+ Gruul kills. 1 Tsunami. 0 Solarians. 0 Warp Spring.

I still would not use the BT faction trinket and honestly I cant imagine anyone else in our guild using it, for DPS or tanking.

I will edit my above post to clarify point #4. In terms of pure DPS, heroic strike can obviously be used faster with faster weapons. I was focusing my list on damage-per-rage and damage-per-threat.

The opportunity cost of your heroic strike swing is proportionally the same for a slow or a fast weapon because the hidden benefits it provides (+chance to hit, impale, no glancing) are also proportional to weapon speed.

The hidden benefits from heroic strike with a 1.5 speed weapon cause 73% more threat and cost 73% more rage than with a 2.6 speed weapon. Without flurry, if 50% of your swings in a minute were heroic strikes, it would cost 132 rage and 2420 threat for a 2.6 weapon (11 swings). It would cost 240 rage and 4400 threat for a 1.5 weapon (20 swings).

The net difference is that the dagger produces 1872 more base damage for 1980 threat and 108 rage.

The only benefit of using heroic strike with a faster weapon is to gain the +damage bonus quickly if you have no threat or rage concerns. An earlier poster is correct--the only encounter in the game where this is the case is probably Loatheb.

This does fail to take into account the hidden rage cost of Heroic Strike, though (i.e costs your next autoattack swing worth of Rage). Assuming 3010 AP (divides evenly!) and 100 DPS weapons, your overall DPS is going to be 315. With a 2.6 speed weapon this works out to 819 damage pre-armor, and with a 1.5 speed weapon it works out to 472.5 damage pre-armor. As for the rage that you'd gain from these hits...

Zero-Armor
2.6 - 819 Damage: 819 / 73 + 2.6 * 1.75 = 11 + 4.5 = 15.5
1.5 - 472.5 Damage: 472.5 / 73 + 1.5 * 1.75 = 6.5 + 2.5 = 9

10% Armor Reduction
2.6 - 737 Damage: 737 / 73 + 2.6 * 1.75 = 10 + 4.5 = 14.5
1.5 - 425 Damage: 425 / 73 + 1.5 * 1.75 = 6 + 2.5 = 8.5

20% Armor Reduction
2.6 - 655 Damage: 655 / 73 + 2.6 * 1.75 = 9 + 4.5 = 13.5
1.5 - 378 Damage: 378 / 73 + 1.5 * 1.75 = 5 + 1.5 = 6.5

So to rerun your numbers in the same scenario, the 2.6 speed weapon loses 11 * 13.5 additional rage and the 1.5 speed weapon loses 20 * 6.5 additional rage.

This puts it at 280 rage and 2420 threat for a 2.6 speed weapon at 11 swings, and 370 rage and 4400 threat for a 1.5 speed weapon. While I believe you were trying to use the same % of swings so as to avoid calculating Impale and the +hit modifier, it is interesting to see the results when you compare them for the same Rage cost (since, presumably, your overall rage generation is much the same no matter what). At 15 swings, the 1.5 speed weapon costs 180 + 97.5 = 277.5 Rage, and will generate 2940 bonus threat.

Don't get me wrong - using a quicker weapon is undeniably worse in this situation, since for the same rage cost you're generating around 21% more threat and receiving a considerably smaller +hit/Impale bonus, but it is a little bit closer than the situation you described.

Nvm, RPzip covered it.

Except for the same amount of Heroic Strikes (15), the 2.6 speed weapon ends up losing an additional 105 rage doesn't it?

Unless there is some error in your calculations, you are implying that a 2.6 speed weapon generates more rage than a 1.5 speed weapon.

2.6 speed: 11.53*13.5 = 155.6 rage generated. (To be precise, 11.53 swings in 30 seconds)
1.5 speed: 20*6.5 = 130 rage generated

What about critical strikes? What about glancing blows? I believe this is an oversimplification of the opportunity cost. If you assume that both weapon speeds generate the same rage over time, then 30 seconds of heroic strike should have an equal opportunity cost for both weapons.

I have not spent much time analyzing the rage formula but my assumption was that it was independent of weapon speed. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Worldofraids forums :: Haste rating hidden changes on PTR

Thats just retarded. After the WF nerf Im struggling for top 5 dps spot, now with the haste nerf I'd be lucky to stay in the top 10.
Looks like warlocks got what they wanted yet again.

It's not the same, but it's similar to when they nerfed proc's that would proc themselves. A large part of that was due to TF damage.

With the haste nerf incoming, does this statement still stand ?

I have the T2 axe at the moment, and I'm one vortex away from T3: I collected all the mats to switch over to [Dragonstrike] though (I have a DST). Do I still bother, or just go for the stats on [Wicked Edge of the Planes] ?

Im wondering the same thing, as well as how haste rating now compares to -armor and other stats now with the new formula, but this is a pretty huge blow for alot of things, DST will now only give about 20% compared to the old 30%, wonder if it will still be the top dog or not. these melee nerfs hurt pretty bad to be honest, the windfury one hurt 2h hugely and now this will also hurt as well.

The melee haste nerf has been confirmed as intentional and not a bug here. The relevant section:

# Haste: Haste has been rebalanced. It has returned to the ratios from the launch of Burning Crusade. Melee attacks and spell casts will now benefit at identical rates from haste. This change results in a reduction in the benefit of haste for melee attacks and an increase in the benefit for spellcasters.

I just had a quick question regarding the next OH upgrade as a fury warrior. Currently I am using the wicked edge of the planes as my MH and merciless gladiators hacker OH. My guild is working through SSC and TK at the moment, so i was curious to know the next best upgrade for my OH

[Swiftsteel Bludgeon] - Black Temple trash once you get in there.

[Tracker's Blade] will also be a great offhand after the haste nerf.

I wonder which of the above is the better offhand for a Human. It'll be roughly 1% crit versus 1.7% haste and 3% offhand hit.

so there is no better OH weapon then the merciless gladiators hacker in TK or SSC??

All weapons in TK/SSC except for Vashj/Kael Loot have a much lower item value (128 IIRC) which leads to a 93,x DPS weapon. The stats might not be optimal, but thats about all.

I'm curious about this myself. I'm trying to decide between using nethers for Dragonstrike or saving up a few weeks for an arena mainhand. Obviously there's some points wasted on resilience, but I can't complain about a hit/crit/ap/stam spread.

Anyone else compare haste to +hit after the yellow hit cap?
15.7 haste: 1% more swings in a give period of time
15.8 hit: 1% more hits

Given the time period of 100 swings, 35% crit, 24% glancing, 5.6% dodge, 15% miss, rest hit.
Base Stats:
100 Swings, 35 crits, 24 glancing at 75% damage, 5.6 dodges, 15 misses, 20.4 hits
Total weapon damage: 108.4x
+10% Hit
100 swings, 35 crits, 24 glancing at 75% damage, 5.6 dodges, 5 misses, 30.4 hits
Total Weapon Damage: 118.4
+10% Haste
110 swings, 38.5 crits, 26.4 glancing at 75% damage, 6.16 dodges, 16.5 misses, 22.44 hits
Total Weapon Damage: 119.24

Some of my values might be a little off, but it's a comparable rate of return with haste being slightly more preferrable and both only modify white damage. An additional point is that you can cap hit and not haste. When looking at passive haste items, I keep this in mind for comparison as I have a general idea how much I value +hit.

Additionally, given the amount of rage that is attainable in a boss encounter, has anyone done any in depth comparison to using an imp OP/TM build (12/46/3) that would let you fill out the fury tree a couple points more and stance dance overpower (for significant rage usage) to cycle in a third instant attack without threat modifier? Give ~5% dodge, you get dodges fairly regularly and being able to OP every 20 seconds would not be unusual. I've been playing around with the warrior dps spread sheet and while it is not as high in pure DPS as an impale build, the threat savings from overpowering instead of HSing are significant. Deep wounds doesn't do much when DWing as an offhand crit tic isn't very powerful and you frequently have it refreshed before it tics. Hmmm. I need to get some prot warriors back active in my guild so I can go back to DPS.

Kind of a change of direction here....but this has been bugging me for the last couple of weeks. Hopefully my rambling doesn't sound too whiny.

Reading through a couple of posts from other threads, and the results of the Wind fury, and soon to follow haste and mace spec nerf, I've started to question what Blizzard's intentions are for a "DPS" warrior. Most of the nerfs were to bring T6, dual legendary wielding, rogues in line with caster DPS, but the side effect was a rather severe hit to fury and a brutal nerf to Arms/MS damage in a raid setting.

The quote from earlier was something to the following effect. "Rogues, Mages and warlocks do a lot of DPS because that's all they can do. DPS Warriors have less DPS because blizzard thinks they can tank (with a respec, and change of gear)....". Then it went on to talk about how, because hybrids could do more, they did each job less then optimally.

Basically, that strikes me as a weak excuse for us not putting out competitive DPS. The last 2 weeks have seen me drop from first place on lurker, and a solid top 5 on every other SSC boss to 5-10 on most bosses. The crowning moment of my DPS career was last night, when our priest class leader decided to bring his alt Warlock (in heroic and 2-3 kz epics) into Gruul and our Void Reaver kill. He beat me on every single boss, and easily kept pace on the trash. It seriously made me question was i was even in the raid if a T4 quality warlock can put out more DPS then a T5+ DPS warrior can...All i brought was a battle shout to the rogues, which could have been handled by our second prot warrior being put in the rogue group.

Even moving into BT in a few month, I don't see a few hundred more AP, hit and crit making up for, or closing the gap on what our top DPS is putting out NOW, let alone when they are T6 geared as well.

And with Dual Wielding Death Knights on the horizon....I'm seeing less and less of a future for a DPS warrior. Are we just supposed to be content with "average" quality dps? Is that our new place? After having tasted the best pre-TBC, and even pre-WF nerf, it's really hard to swallow being second rate.

(Background; we are working on Vash'j, You can look me up on the armory, but short of a DST, Tsunami talisman and T5 DPS pants, I've got just about all the available gear from farmed content)

I can't see your armory, Calgar. Could you detail your stats, please, and possibly the group you find yourself in in a raid? Do you have a Shaman in your group? That would be of the greatest benefit.

Until two weeks ago I was 33/28 MS myself. The Windfury change was very drastic to the feel of my particular spec (which focussed on Slam). I ended up DW fury and find that the WF change doesn't seem too harsh in that regard. I was just crafting and stacking haste when news of that change hit as well; now I wear 4/5 Tier 5 + armorsmithing BP and find that it works better for me than the haste I had been wearing, simply because my crit is so much better and my flurry/rampage uptime more consistent.