Graul's point is; If you have to pass on tanking loot to the main-tanks, and pass on DPS loot to your main dps (rogue/hunter)...what does that leave us? It's not cool downing a new boss and knowing you won't even have a CHANCE to get loot even if what you want does drops.
You need to discuss that with your guild. In my guild, Im considered a dps warrior, therefore i have full rights to bid on any dps loot that rogues/hunters can bid on, and I only pick up tank stuff if none of our MT's need it. For example, our first [Choker of Endless Nightmares] went to me because I bid the most. Same with [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]. You need to have your role figured out 100% first with the guild.
Is Malchazeen really better than an AS2 off hand sword? I have one in my bag that I have been messing around with for Execute (I typically used my King's Defender main hand for that), but I can't really see it making up for the raw DPS on an AS2 axe, (sword or mace in your case) especially when you factor in weapon skill. The biggest thing it has going for it is the speed.
I've been offhanding a Malchazeen for a while and really have no complaints. I'm thinking about grabbing a Talon of the Pheonix (2.7 spd mh) and flipping my Talon of Azshara to the OH (2.7 spd) to try a slow/slow setup post buffs. It would be an upgrade in stats, white dps, and up my MH% hasted swings off special crits. With matched speed, I want to play around and see about the 4 swing flurries. Post 20%, I'd probably swap the malchazeen back in.
It was also my off hand weapon until I grabbed a S2 axe. I just can't see it being better overall unless somehow haste is being put to better use with it over a 1.5 weapon. Having dual Mongoose and a Dragonstrike would probably make a 1.5 speed weapon so fast that much of the haste is being wasted. That is really the only way I can see it being better for what it lacks in raw stats.
Graul's point is; If you have to pass on tanking loot to the main-tanks, and pass on DPS loot to your main dps (rogue/hunter)...what does that leave us? It's not cool downing a new boss and knowing you won't even have a CHANCE to get loot even if what you want does drops.
You're forgetting weapons and plate armor that we have almost exclusive rights to.
You're forgetting weapons and plate armor that we have almost exclusive rights to.
How is that relevant to rings, trinkets, necks, cloaks and non Dagger/Bow items? Only a real tool would loot lower material armor over another class that can't go higher unless there was simply not anything comparable, and there almost always is.
Is Malchazeen really better than an AS2 off hand sword? I have one in my bag that I have been messing around with for Execute (I typically used my King's Defender main hand for that), but I can't really see it making up for the raw DPS on an AS2 axe, (sword or mace in your case) especially when you factor in weapon skill. The biggest thing it has going for it is the speed.
Probably not better, but seeing as how I rarely arena, its what I use untill we get lucky with [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] drop.
How is that relevant to rings, trinkets, necks, cloaks and non Dagger/Bow items? Only a real tool would loot lower material armor over another class that can't go higher unless there was simply not anything comparable, and there almost always is.
In my guild, all of the rogues are favoring Swords which leaves all axes and daggers to me. The ranged slot is relatively insignificant as some of the best ones still drop in Karazhan. In terms of pure DPS the [Vengeance Wrap] is one of the best cloaks available to us, only 15 hit rating less than the Gorefiend cloak. There is plenty of loot for us to pick up.
It was also my off hand weapon until I grabbed a S2 axe. I just can't see it being better overall unless somehow haste is being put to better use with it over a 1.5 weapon. Having dual Mongoose and a Dragonstrike would probably make a 1.5 speed weapon so fast that much of the haste is being wasted. That is really the only way I can see it being better for what it lacks in raw stats.
I'm pretty sure it's impossible to actually "waste" haste. You get the same dps increase from going from 3.0 to 1.5 as you do going from 1.5 to .75
Originally Posted by Apate
Zyla, International Man of a Certain Standard.
Originally Posted by Wraithlin
What have you brought to this discussion? The usual vacuous and contentless tripe that you contribute to these forums - no more and no less.
I'm treated extremely well because I have almost 100% raid attendance and the only ones who are typically ahead of me are those dirty filthy Rogues. I even have DST and Tsunami Tailsman, heh.
Right, but your original post was too generalized as though each item that was multiclass was defaulted to "Pure DPS" classes just because they are "Pure DPS".
Well, if you do 100 dps (nice round number) at 3.0 (300/swing) and 1.5 (150 a swing), your dps at 100% haste (100% more attacks in X amount of time) would be 300/swing at 1.5 seconds (200 dps) and 150 a swing .75 seconds (200 dps) so the values on paper certainly shake down fine.
I agree natural, i wasn't really taking one side of the argument, i was just stating a possible point of view. I actually get all the DPS plate before tanks, and "weekend ret pallys", and the other dps warrior is content to forever stay in 5/5 merciless with a stormherald, with all other PvP items.
Our guild runs a DKP system for 25 mans only, as I'm sure a lot do. I have 2 arena weapons, 2 karazhan rings, Vengeance Wrap, and blood lust brooch. The items i'm looking into getting are DST, maybe a tsunami talisman, and maybe a ring here or there. Post buff i wouldn't mind a talon of Al'ar either.
If i was forced to pass on everything i wanted to rogues, like the dst and tsunami, I doubt i would EVER get them. In a guild killing 5/6 SSC, 2/4 TK, attrition is insanely high. We have recruited about 5 people a month on top of our original 25 in March, and still have issues with class balance and filling raids.
Like i said, passing the "Cross-class" dps items to full time DPS characters MIGHT help the raid a bit....but it would leave me with no viable loot upgrades until everyone else has what they want.
Well, if you do 100 dps (nice round number) at 3.0 (300/swing) and 1.5 (150 a swing), your dps at 100% haste (100% more attacks in X amount of time) would be 300/swing at 1.5 seconds (200 dps) and 150 a swing .75 seconds (200 dps) so the values on paper certainly shake down fine.
I agree natural, i wasn't really taking one side of the argument, i was just stating a possible point of view. I actually get all the DPS plate before tanks, and "weekend ret pallys", and the other dps warrior is content to forever stay in 5/5 merciless with a stormherald, with all other PvP items.
Our guild runs a DKP system for 25 mans only, as I'm sure a lot do. I have 2 arena weapons, 2 karazhan rings, Vengeance Wrap, and blood lust brooch. The items i'm looking into getting are DST, maybe a tsunami talisman, and maybe a ring here or there. Post buff i wouldn't mind a talon of Al'ar either.
If i was forced to pass on everything i wanted to rogues, like the dst and tsunami, I doubt i would EVER get them. In a guild killing 5/6 SSC, 2/4 TK, attrition is insanely high. We have recruited about 5 people a month on top of our original 25 in March, and still have issues with class balance and filling raids.
Like i said, passing the "Cross-class" dps items to full time DPS characters MIGHT help the raid a bit....but it would leave me with no viable loot upgrades until everyone else has what they want.
I can definitely understand and agree from your perspective. My situation is a bit different different.
We're traditionally well progressed (finished ATM) and have virtually zero attrition. I have been playing with rogues and hunters I compete with for almost two years, so I am happy to see them get upgrades anytime they are available. In most cases, they can put it to more use than I can, especially if I am threat limited on a particular encounter.
Notably there are a lot of multi-tank situations in SSC/TK, however, in BT/Hyjal I almost never tank in a boss encounter (as the 4th guild tank). By the end of our SSC/TK farming I ended up with plenty of loot from both sides (tank/dps). However, with the change in tanking requirements, I am beginning to be more inclined to pick up some competitive DPS gear. I'm curious what lies ahead in the Sunwell.
I'm also the guild/raid leader and we operate with a loot council, so I try to set an example by letting others pick up competitive things first and only picking up what's default/clearly intended for my class.
Yes. AFAIK there is no weapon speed limit. I've seen my offhand drop to around 0.4, but I'll have to pull up a screenshot when I get home.
It's one of those rumors that won't seem to go away. There's been evidence posted in this forum before, and you can probably find a WWS log of rogues showing weapons clearly hitting faster than 1s
I can't really make that out even blown up. Is that 0.86? And I know there is a reason for my line of thought, even if a weapon can go below 1.0 speeds, and it's probably because of Flurry charges.
I can't really make that out even blown up. Is that 0.86? And I know there is a reason for my line of thought, even if a weapon can go below 1.0 speeds, and it's probably because of Flurry charges.
For auto attacks only, flurry charges used are negated by the flurries created by the frequent attacks. 3.0/1.5 - Your OH will use 2/3rds of your flurry charges but it will also create 2/3rds of your auto attack crits.
On a more advanced level, the faster offhand will use more of your flurry charges created by specials (and actually your MH will miss less due to HS usage and thus create more flurry charges). It would be tough to calculate the expected DPS loss if your Flurry is up most of the time regardless. Fast attack speed does create more even rage generation for more efficient/easier cycling that may pick you up some DPS from a playability stand point.
Furthermore, your fast OH gains more from +damage buffs like most sharpening stones, Gift of Arthas (My personal favorite), and hemo should one of your rogues be using that for some reason. You might also get more JoL and more regular imp LotP procs.
There's a lot that goes into oh speed, enough that it would be hard to concretely argue one way or the other.
On a more advanced level, the faster offhand will use more of your flurry charges created by specials (and actually your MH will miss less due to HS usage and thus create more flurry charges).
Why should your MH create more Flurry charges when using HS?
You'd need 100%-25%-5,6%-24%=45,4% Crit for Glancings to reduce your amount of Crits when you have 0% Hit from gear. Each percent Hit from gear increases the Crit needed by another percent.
Edit: Since I don't know the exact chance to glance and miss a level 73 boss I simply took the worst values I heard of, so you probably need even more Crit than stated above.
08/30/07, 3:33 PM
