Emeraude

Any thoughts on Dragonspine Trophy post 2.2 patch? In addition to the haste nerf it also has had a 20-25 second internal cooldown added to it.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dragonstrike was nerfed similarly.

 

• Ren

There's no precedence of weapon procs having internal cooldowns, and it's doubtful Blizzard would begin implementing them now.

 

• Zyla

Ouch. I'd really like to see the numbers now, and wonder if other weapons would suddenly be more appealing. :/

We don't use words like that...St. Louise is listening!

 

Kiranat

After hearing about the Dragonspine nerf I downloaded the new PTR client and took a tip out to Blasted Lands to do some DPS testing on the banished mobs.

Obviously these mobs can't compare to a raid boss, but in direct comparisons with other tests on the same mobs it's pretty valid.

I did my best to have the same variables in play from live to PTR - Precisely 6 minutes, NO Death Wish/Recklessness, same placement, same gear, kept 5 sunders up, kept Rampage up, kept Battle Shout up.

Live - ~1240 DPS
PTR - ~1130 DPS

Both of my weapons and one of my trinkets are pretty much purely haste based (Dragonstrike, Swiftsteel Bludgeon, Dragonspine Trophy) so the haste nerf is hitting pretty hard, though even with that hidden cooldown I can't think of very much I'd use over Dragonspine.

I'll download Procmeter and play around with it this afternoon for some further testing, but from what I glanced at on live it's really only a matter of 5-10 seconds longer between Dragonspine procs and I didn't notice any difference for Dragonstrike.


Update:
So I finally took the dive and started using WWS to make some reports so I could better see what's happening.

Just finished a set on PTR. Gear, spec, buffs, and mob are 100% identical between PTR and Live.

PTR -
Actual Start Time - 12:56:50.828
Actual Finish Time - 13:03:31.062
Total Damage - 421,163
Reported DPS - 1163

WWS Report - WWS
Actual Combat Log - http://thinkmaclaren.com/wws/PTR/WoWCombatLog.txt


Live -
Actual Start Time - 13:30:47.515
Actual Finish Time - 13:34:56.546
Total Damage - 329,664 (323818*)
Reported DPS - 1334

WWS Report - WWS
Actual Combat Log - http://thinkmaclaren.com/wws/LIVE/WoWCombatLog.txt
*There's a stray execute in the log for 5846

Also, to me these numbers seem quite low, albeit only self-buffed and keeping my own sunders up. PLEASE give me any suggestions you have!

What this means in relation to Dragonspine (more info to come!) - Average time between Procs on Live was ~15.5s, on PTR ~26.7s. That said this information may be flawed, as I am not sure whether the "Haste" being recorded in WWS is from Dragonstrike, Dragonspine, or both. From the average time I would assume it's recording just Dragonspine.

What I'm truly curious about now is seeing a comparison between Rising Tide and Dragonstrike - So if anyone has both, could you do some testing and post WWS or anything like it?

 

ckaparos

judgeing from the nerf is dragonstrike still going to be the best weapon?

I currently have s2 mh sword, talon sword and dragonstrike all with mongoose i have dst also.

Which of the 3 will be best after the haste nerf i wonder.

 

Davia

Finally got a clean Gorefiend kill with our normal MT in:
Davia - WWS

Skylla is the rogue that I'm usually jockeying with for #1 damage, he got the debuff fairly early on. The other rogue who is normally top 3 wasn't online tonight, so not a ton of competition, but still a decent raid DPS kill, not as if I got to blow a 3rd Death Wish. Tanath's TPS was off the charts, as I was able to go all out and not worry about my threat at all.

Did use 3 Haste pots, but group was Fury Warrior (me), BF Warrior, Enhancement Shaman and 2 Rogues, so no LotP or FI. Did have 2 Heroisms, one at ~90% with DW and trinket/haste pot up, but the 2nd one was around 70% with no cooldowns up, wish the shaman had saved it for 19% with DW/Reck up :-/. Would also like to get a DST before nerf to see if I could top 2k dps, but we've only ever had one and I'm 3rd in line still for it.

 

deusy

I've been looking over the forums for hours now, and I have yet to find the one thing I was looking for, regarding Heroic Strike (as both DPS, and tanking). The question at hand follows: Top rank Heroic Strike causes 193 additional threat when it lands, before modifiers. It seems to me that you would also gain additional threat from the damage increase, making Heroic Strike actually cause 176 threat from damage (being as damage from Heroic Strike is unmitigated), and an additional 193 from the threat component, making Heroic Strike cause a total of 369 additional threat more than a normal white strike. Is this correct? It seems to me that this is how it would probably work, but a lot of things in WoW don't make intuitive sense. It also seems entirely possible to me that the 176 unmitigated damage only causes 17 extra threat making the total threat from Heroic Strike 193... Would like confirmation, as I no longer play WoW and cannot test it on my own. I ask on behalf of a lazy tank friend.

 

◊ Repeek

I noticed you're spec'd into 2/2 Improved Overpower yet you didn't overpower once the entire fight. Would you consider moving one of those talent points into Imp Whirlwind for a smoother BT/WW cycle?

 

Brissa

It is 193 (if that number is correct im not quite up to speed) extra threat in addition to the damage the hit does.
And its actually even more than 369 extra threat per hit since heroic strikes cant glance and as such on average does more than 176 extra damage than a white hit.

That being said this is a DPS warrior thread not a tank thread.

 

Salted

Ya, this is the wannabe-rogue domain, get yer tankin talk outa here....or my guild might get the bright idea to make me spec prot

 

Davia

I could, I just went to this spec (before I had PH). I mostly did it to get improved overpower for threat-capped fights. For example if you look at Gurtogg in the same report, you'll see I did use overpower a decent amount, but it's just something I've started doing; I hadn't had improved overpower at all in BC as Fury.

 

smor

how much TPS do your tanks generate? and whats a good dps # for a T4 17/44 warrior?

 

tristantio

This is a post regarding wielding two identical speed weapons and the associated benefit of doing so, although part of my higher dps may be attributed to the two weapons both being slow, therefore also giving even more flurry uptime due to BT/WW keeping it up for longer durations without a 1.5 speed weapon eating them away as quickly.

Anyways, I recently picked up a [Fool's Bane] from Karazhan, despite already having [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] in mainhand and [Merciless Gladiator's Hacker] in my offhand, as no one else needed it.

I had heard about the extra flurry charge while wielding identical speed weapons, so decided to test for myself if using the two 2.6 speed weapons would actually yield a higher dps than the 1.5 speed offhand.

I tested on a typical Servant of Allistarj while keeping up Battleshout, Rampage, and repeating the BT/WW cycle with heroic strike when applicable (I did not keep up or use sunder armor for the test).

While mainhanding Fool's Bane and offhanding the 2.6 speed merc glad axe I maintained a consistent 730 dps over a 10 minute period of testing.

While mainhanding the 2.6 speed gladiator's axe and offhanding the 1.5 speed axe I maintained a constant 680 dps over a 10 minute period of testing.

While my crit rate is low (~24% in berserker currently) it was more of a dps gain than I would have expected by using a weapon that was 10 dps lower in listed value (Fool's bane as opposed to the merc axe in MH).

My warrior's armory:
The Armory

 

Grymm

That is interesting. I'm looking to pick up a claw off A'lar (2.7 speed mh) to MH with my Talon of Azshara would get pushed to OH. That would pair me at 2.7 speed. It would give me a higher DPS OH than my Malchazeen while adding in more stats as well.

 

Nite_Moogle

tristantio, part of what you are seeing is related to the fact that instant attacks like BT and WW also generate Flurry charges. By using slower weapons you're consuming those charges less often so you see a better overall flurry uptime, thus better haste overall.

That being said, your crit rate is going to be significantly higher against Blasted Lands servants which exaggerates part of the test, so you'll have to see how it pans out against the MG weapons in raid situations. I would guess it will more or less be a wash.

 

tristantio

Servant of Allistarj is level 55 and therefore 75 defense lower than my 350 weapon skill, meaning that I'm getting an additional .04% chance to crit for each of those, effectively netting me 75 * .04 = 3 % extra crit rate, which is easily covered by buffs in a raid environment, so I think the testing for comparison is still fairly accurate and therefore I don't think its superfluous.

I do agree that a main factor is probably the lower weapon speed and the greater significance of yellow damage therefore keeping up flurry, however 50 dps is pretty substantial especially when dropping 10 dps on the aforementioned weapons to be able to dual wield the slower ones.

If Flurry is permanently up anyways (due to a much higher crit rate of around 33%+) than I'd imagine the impact is less significant, but for any lower geared fury warriors the benefit is definitely there.

 

svagftw

Flurry isn't up more than 70ish percent even with full black temple gear and 35+% crit.

 

Graul

This should be quoted and then quoted again and stickied in any forum that has any kind of discussion about Fury/Flurry. I get so sick of seeing people talk about "how easy it is to get perma Flurry". All the theorycrafting and spreadheets in the world won't disprove the fact that perma Flurry does not exist. The closest thing to it is an 80%-85% uptime, but it's almost always up less than that in a real fight.

 

tristantio

If that's the case then it looks like there is a much larger benefit to dual wielding identical speed slow weapons than I had initially thought, even at higher gear levels.

Slow weapons mean that instant attacks such as BT/WW/Hamstring that don't consume a flurry charge are still capable of activating flurry, and main and offhanding slow weapons will ensure that all those charges aren't eaten up by a 1.5 speed weapon.

Also the extra flurry swings from simultaneous hits with same speed weapons seems hugely beneficial also.

 

Nahiag

a simple question, does slam consume a flurry charge? as it is considered as a full swing...

 

Grymm

Flurry only effects white auto-swings. Slam is mathematically calculated as a normal swing is for damage (full weapon speed/ap benefit) but it is a special attack. It is not hasted by flurry and does not use a flurry charge.

 

Ercassiel

This is my first time posting and I am a bit new to the game (been playing about 8 months now). However, my questions often go unanswered on the class forums or my questions go over people’s heads. No matter how new, I am a theory crafter and while some people just like clicking buttons, I love to crunch numbers. It was suggested to me to come here and while I am apprehensive about posting among a fine group of individuals like yourself, I urge you to believe that I have given this some thought and also seen some merit in game. Having spend lurking around a bit trying to find an answer, I came back empty on my question, albeit got a few amazing tips.

My question relates to survivability of DPS warrior, so please bare with me on all defense stuff

Assumption:
For the sake of calculations, I will assume that 490 defense makes a warrior or a palladin 100% uncrittable.

It is a far and wide fact that 490 defense will make you uncrittable (almost) against a level 73 mob (bosses). This comes from the fact that 475 defense will compensate for 5% crit chance that a same level mob has plus extra 15 to compensate for the level difference. (5 per level)

475-350 = 125 extra defense for a mob your level
125/5% = 25 defense per % crit

Extra 15 defense means that a level 73 mob has 0.6% additional chance to crit you. (interpolated)

Thus a level 73 mob has a 5.6% chance to crit you with base defense (350) at level 70.

Now, each point of resilience reduces a chance to be critically hit by 0.025%

5.6/0.025 = 224

As a DPS warrior and an avid PvP lover, my DPS gear mostly comes from PvP rewards and the Arena. Hence, my DPS gear is heavily resilience based. I know that resilience does not come free and that I am giving up some stats and perhaps gem slots for it, but in the guild I am in and the way tier tokens are set, I am competing against tanks and healers for tier pieces and thus, understandably, am at the bottom of the loot distribution list. Always striving towards improving my character, I sought gear upgrades elsewhere.

So, the $64,000 question.
Is my calculation above skewed or does it really mean that if I have ~225 resilience on my DPS gear that I would be virtually uncrittable in PvE?

Inquiring minds would love your input.

 

Grymm

While you could be crit immune, that certainly doesn't mean a trash mob won't turn around and 2 shot you anyway. As a dps warrior, I find that I have, in general, the worst survivability of any class. My avoidance is inferior to a rogue, you take 10% more damage which all but negates your armor, and you have inferior aggro management. As such, I don't value any sort of defensive stat other than stamina. And, given that I'm clearing 11k hp raid buffed to survive any AOE secondary target damage, even additional stamina is of little value. You can't hit point something to death.

S2 gladiator gear is an excellent fill in for T4 level DPS gear. It has decent strenght, crit, and some hit. It's also about 20 ilvls higher than t4. T5 gear, which is what S2 gear is equivalent to, is superior to it for PVE dps. The long and short of it is you can do ok with that gear because it is higher level even than what you are using it to replace but in the long run, the PVE gear out distances it.

Also, your resilience is of almost no value. 15% crushing blows will kill you 3x more often than 5% crits. Intervene the tank on a boss one time and see how hard they hit.

 

Rezarel

As soon as you parry an attack, your swings will get out of sync. See Parry Mechanics. You might also want to look at How Does Flurry Work to see how Flurry behaves funny even in situations where you'd think it would be straightforward.

So, in your test it's fairly likely that your weapons got out of sync (unless someone else was tanking the mob) and any potential benefit of having matched weapons was lost. It's quite possible that due to the funny stuff going on with Flurry that there actually is no benefit to matched weapons -- that will take more testing as far as I know. But your Blasted Lands run doesn't prove anything (unless you had someone else tanking for you).

 

zeratulgr

Currently i am weilding a Dragonstrike MH and swiftsteel blundgeon offhand.
We had like 5 of those drop allready and so i picked a second one up for fun since it would go to a priest.

I actually like the idea of Dualweilding 2 of those weaps,they have amazing stats.And with these i am sitting around 15% passive haste and the hit they posses is really needed since with dragonstrike and 1 blungeon i have only 167 hit rating.

What do you think?Is the dragonstrike proc making up for all those dps stats missing on it?
I know that a slow mainhand favors Whirlwind and cleave.On the other hand the blundgeon gives more steady rage generation, the ability for more Heroic Strike spamming and executes.

So which is the best choice?