1/(MHSpd/1.25) - Flurried MH swings per second 1/(OHSpd/1.25) - Flurried OH swings per second
Total Swings per Second (TS)
3/TS = Time period for 3 flurried swings (tp)
tp/6 = Blood thirsts per Flurry Cycle
tp/9 = WW per cycle
.2*(tp*Flurried MH swings per second) = WFs per cycle X = other specials that can crit per flurry cycle (spamstring)
Total Bonus Swings per Flurry Cycle (BS)
Flurry Uptime = 1-(1-Crit%)^(3+BS)
So if you get in 1 special per flurry cycle (which you probably don't), you would have flurry chance of 1-(1-crit%)^(3+1). I think the spreadsheets use this math as well. The point is your flurry up time can be maximized/optimized through slower weapons for more bonus swings as well as higher crit chance. As your crit chance increases, the increase in Flurry uptime will taper off as it approaches 100%.
I also vaguely calculated some DPS values (neglecting flurry) for Str vs. Crit on itemization points. I breifly modeled unflurried autoattack, BT, and WW for .15 (miss + dodge), values of ap 2000-4500, crit from .3-.41, glancing blows, 0 mitigation on target, basic Imp/Fury spec. For all values of ap, starting with a 30% crit chance, 10 AP returned 2.544 DPS (.56 dps per itemization points w/ kings). At 40% crit chance, 10 ap was .616 dps per itemization point. Given the high flurry up times of .3 and .40 crit, added crit returns limited flurry uptime increase. Modeling flurry in would then increase DPS based around higher return on AP rather than Crit. At 2000 ap, 1% crit yielded 6.54 dps (.3 dps per itemization point). At 4500 ap, the return rises to .55 dps per itemization point. So, according to what gear I have (I theoretically peak my AP in the low 4k range during a raid and almost always above 3500, str is always preferrable to crit point for point. At my peak values, the crit is competitively valued before I account for flurry. My conclusion for gearing is to keep up a decent crit and stack AP. Hit I will take as I get gear with it. With some decent raid gear (I could use T5 pants, eradication bracers), I'll hit 200 hit rating without effort which is adequate. I don't clearly see a point above 30% crit but below 4500 ap peak where stacking crit is superior. AP tends to have a linear return increasing dps by a fairly flat amount. Crit has a scaling return increasing DPS by a fraction of your DPS.
Contrary to most 2h dps Serida did not use a single slam and yet was able to beat out Ararat( a fury war). Instead using HS as their primary rage dump. Serida stated that threat cap was the reason for 33/28 surpassing 17/44 for individual dps. Fewer HS's even though they hit harder leads to less cumulative threat (duh) making it much easier to push out higher dps while remaining under the threat cap.
Contrary to most 2h dps Serida did not use a single slam and yet was able to beat out Ararat( a fury war). Instead using HS as their primary rage dump. Serida stated that threat cap was the reason for 33/28 surpassing 17/44 for individual dps. Fewer HS's even though they hit harder leads to less cumulative threat (duh) making it much easier to push out higher dps while remaining under the threat cap.
Serida's DPS confuses me sometimes, but then I take everything else into account when comparing it to my own.
Blood Legion truly does stack their DPS groups, and their DPSers have insane gear.
I did Gorefiend last week as 33/28 (without Imp Slam) and only pulled 1200 DPS, but at the same time the top DPSer was only doing 1750. So put in perspective (percentage wise) it's very similar.
As for him beating a fury warrior in raw DPS I can only assume the fury warrior a) didn't have WF, b) wasn't using DST, c) wasn't in a DPS group at all, or d) all of the above.
I quite simply don't see how it's possible any other way, as I have reasonably comparable gear to Serida and I pulled a good 300 DPS lower than our fury warrior.
I respecced back to Imp Slam so I'll post up a WWS of my damage on the next kill - I expect to see 1300-1350 DPS if not more assuming I don't get ghosted,
Edit - Ararat is a Prot Warrior normally (judging from his 5/5 T6 tank + bulwark of azzinoth) so I'm going to assume his fury gear is piss poor compared to normal Hyjal/BT level warriors :P
Another comment on the Archimonde numbers: Ararat doesn't have an enhancement shaman (no unleashed rage on buffs). 10% AP means a lot, probably no improved totems (not huge, but something), and I'd wager he had less than perfect totem coverage as well, with 18 WF attacks to Serida's 15. I'd think he'd have a few more considering the attack speed difference between 1H and 2H, or maybe he was just plain unlucky with WF.
Oh, and what Kiranat said. Ararat is/was MT for Blood Legion a long time. Not sure of his current status.
Last edited by Trazhenko : 09/11/07 at 12:53 PM.
Reason: tank
Contrary to most 2h dps Serida did not use a single slam and yet was able to beat out Ararat( a fury war). Instead using HS as their primary rage dump. Serida stated that threat cap was the reason for 33/28 surpassing 17/44 for individual dps. Fewer HS's even though they hit harder leads to less cumulative threat (duh) making it much easier to push out higher dps while remaining under the threat cap.
This doesn't make sense. If you are able to achieve the threat cap using any build, your focus should be to get the most damager per point of aggro. To do that, the first thing you should do is remove HS from the table. It a worse damage/aggro ratio than auto-attack. Other moves like hamstring which do little damage per aggro should also be avoided. What you wind up with is pure white damage + base specials. Using only those, a fury warrior and 33/28 have the same rate of damage per aggro. If they can do 2 damage per 1 point of aggro, for sake of argument, then 200k aggro to work with (ignoring 10% bonuses or assuming it's already counted) will net them both 400k damage. The question becomes can a fury warrior keep up with an arms warrior without using HS. Post WF nerf, I don't think that is an issue at all. I have neglected aggro from BT healing as it is trivial over the coarse of a fight.
On a aggro capped fight a 33/28 warrior is superior because he is able to use up the available aggro while adding damage to the remaining melee. His personal dps is not the deciding factor. I don't think HS usage belongs in any discussion of aggro cap fights as using HS in any capacity hurts your damage/aggro ratio. Given a Vashj trinket and dual fast weapons (think swiftsteel bludgeon), it could be argued that a fury warrior is superior to an arms warrior for an aggro capped fight due to the larger number of individual crits greatly enhancing the usefulness of that trinket.
1/(MHSpd/1.25) - Flurried MH swings per second 1/(OHSpd/1.25) - Flurried OH swings per second
Total Swings per Second (TS)
3/TS = Time period for 3 flurried swings (tp)
tp/6 = Blood thirsts per Flurry Cycle
tp/9 = WW per cycle
.2*(tp*Flurried MH swings per second) = WFs per cycle X = other specials that can crit per flurry cycle (spamstring)
Total Bonus Swings per Flurry Cycle (BS)
Flurry Uptime = 1-(1-Crit%)^(3+BS)
I think that the miss rate of the MH/OH would increase the time period for flurried swings. . I havent tested but according to the how flurry works thread misses dont use a flurry charge. If you have the minimum +hit for raiding, 9%, you still miss 19%, so thats 19% longer tp which then makes instants more influential on flurry. I think thats significant and might change the relative values of +hit overall.
I did not know that. Does that also apply to dodges? It would not be hard to augment the flurry time period by a percent based on the inverse of your successful hit percentage.
When comparing warrior dps using Blood Legion wws, keep in mind the following:
- Serida is a full time dps warrior (most experienced in that role).
- Serida will generally be in the most optimal melee group, most of the time enhance shaman, feral druid, 2 x rogue and himself.
- Serida has the best gear of all the warriors in BL for dps. No other warrior has a DST for example.
Some other example wws in descending order of raid dps
Link 1 - Serida is 33/28 sword spec, Ararat is prot here, and Xnitemare is Axe spec, probably 33/28
Link 2 - Serida is 33/28 sword, Ararat is 33/28 mace I think, Zert(me) is prot
Why doesn't Serida use slam ? It would be a much better rage dump than hs imo.
Does Serida have some issues with lags or why is he/she not using slam at all ?
My guess would be haste. With haste gear timing slams can get outta whack, whereas with heroic strike if you have enough rage you can just spam it, and haste will be of more benefit than if you were slamming away.
That might be part of it, but he also DPSes with a cataclysm's edge, a 3.5 speed weapon. Slam isn't normalized which means the damage it does scales way, way up with a slower weapon, especially at ~3000+ buffed AP. A 3.8 weapon like Torch will put out very efficient slams, but with a sword the cost of delaying white hits to fit slams in is trickier, especially since it costs 2 talent points to make slam viable in the first place
I have been reading back the past several pages and i have not noticed that the question "After 2.2 will a Wicked edge of the Plains out DPS a Dragonstrike" followed by "What enchant would be best for which" . From the way i see it i think Mongoose would be better on the Wicked edge, whilst potency on the Dragonstrike.
But im not sure myself the calculations as to wether or not Dragonstrike still leads to greater DPS then the Wicked Edge of the Plains.
side note: it wont allow me to make new posts, im yet to find a reason why, though i may have overlooked something
Last edited by FarDareisMar : 09/12/07 at 1:24 AM.
Without mentioning weapon speeds, with Cataclysm's, spamming hamstring for extra sword spec and DST Procs is superior to slam. I've had the sword for a few nights of raiding and I'm beating or matching my old fury DPS without using slam, and I don't have a DST.
Also, afaik blood legion uses a ret paladin, so with totem twisting and LOTP, I'm sure you could be near 50% crit.
Slam proccs dst and sword specc as well.
I think the main problem with people not using slam anymore is that they try to stick with the old cycle auto-slam-style which seems not to be fitting anymore. Simply slam every second or third hit if it doesn't fit in the normal cycle or if you have problems getting the timing correctly. But getting slams off in the correct timing ( around 0.7 secs after the melee hit ) still grants more dps than the 0.7 seconds autohit + harmstring.
Given the many short fights in BT and Hyjal and Bloodlust rotations for the melee during "burst" phases, how does slam fit in? How do you use any kind of rotation with multiple bloodlusts, haste pots, DST procs, flurry? ....your attack speed changes so much. When your auto speed is so fast, it feels like slam + lag screws up any hope of a rotation/timing.
Why would you NOT use WW whenever its not on cooldown? It is an instant attack capable of proccing flurry/trinkets etc etc, instead of heroic strike that consumes more rage and adds extra threat?
/boggle.
09/11/07, 11:58 AM
