Eledorian

Obviously not, otherwise we wouldn't be speculating.

 

Emeraude

Anybody know what's up with Surefooted? My Rogues are telling me it gives much more than 10 hit rating.

 

Gokey

Switching my boots on and off only gives me 10 hit rating... unless you mean the 5% snare resist it also provides.

Unless it's providing something other than the tooltip displays, or more (but not showing up). If so; I'm interested.

 

• Fogbug

Is it possible blizzard bundled the 5% snare resist with the 1% hit increase that comes with a rank of the hunter talent? This is the first I've heard of this

according to thottbot the aura it applies seems to be the correct one, 5% snare and 10 hit rating

 

rholadubs

I think it would be interesting if they added a low dmg, threat reducting, high rage, stackable instant attack as a top tier fury ability. Or maybe not an attack as that would not seem to make much sense to lower threat, but you get the picture.

 

orangefoodie

Sorry for derailing the thread a little, but I couldn't find a better place to ask this in:
with the 2.2 haste nerf, will the 13% haste proc on the drakefist series still be better than the planar axe series, factoring in my orc axe skill adding +3% hit with the planar axe? I couldn't find any solid calculations anywhere.

 

Roflobster

edit: Didn't realize what page I was quoting from

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/420/kirbyrl5.gif

 

Napoleond

I've been having an arguement lately with the other officer in my guild about bringing a 2h MS blood-frenzy specced warrior to raids versus a well geared DW fury warrior.

A couple of things I always say are that,

1. MS DPS is far to reliant on windufry totems. One night we may not have one, and then we havea 400-500 dps ball and chain bringing down the raid. Plus WF seems only to add about 150 or so dps.

2. Blood frenzy adds about (I have not done the exact math, so this is just a guess) 30-40 DPS to each physical damage dealer. I personally would rather have one DW fury warrior in the raid doing 1100 PDS, then that.

Now, the reason im posting here is because I WANT to be proved wrong or right. Please help me out here so I know what is better for my raid groups.

 

Grymm

There is no proof. You take 4% of your physical dps and compare it against the difference in DPS of an 33/28 warrior versus a 17/44 warrior. The variances in gear, skill, raid composition, and particular encounter determine the outcome. My guild does not use a blood frenzy warrior. A lot of guilds do. There are 33/28 warriors out there that out dps me. There are 33/28 warriors out there that I would beat by more than the 4% buff difference. Log a kill in WWS and get a feel for how much the blood frenzy buff could of added.

 

Kiranat

There's no way around the argument that 33/28 is WF reliant, any 2-h build will be that way, however 400-500 DPS is just silly. Granted my gear is quite a bit above-average I can still do 950-1000 without WF.

If you want to figure out how having a Blood Frenzy warrior would affect your raid do this - run damage meters/recap/whatever and collect the damage for each physical DPSer in your raid (hunters, warriors, rogues, enh shaman, whatever) and use this formula

(Damage * 0.04)

to find out what their damage added by Blood Frenzy would have been. The way I define the reason for me spec is that the amount of damage I add is higher than the amount of damage I "lose" by not being DWFury.

If you're currently running as Blood Frenzy - To figure out the damage gained by the raid with Blood Frenzy use (Damage - (Damage/1,04)) for each physical DPSer. For a strict comparison of BF vs Fury just add the damage gained by the raid into your own to get your "effective" DPS.

 

dr_AllCOM3

I do very fine DPS with 33/28 and just WF/Str. Coupled with Blood Frenzy it's definitly worth it.

 

smor

Any other comments on Slam? Is it still worth it if you stack haste? I've played with it and the 2 flaws I saw with slam were

A. Timing - If one misses the correct timing they can delay the next auto swing longer than desired, or overlap and lose an auto swing all together. Losing the Auto swing was a huge loss from missing rage and no damage.

B. Camp - Since slam is a cast one has to be standing still. When I played it i found myself stuck watching my swing timer and not enjoying the fight.

I'm not sure what i would do with those other 2 points in fury as they are needed to get to Flurry. Ive studied Serida's reports and it seems slam is not required for 2h dps.

 

Dasein

I believe your math is off. We want to calculate the difference between damage with BF and damage without BF.

The first equation should be ( ( damage.physical * 1.04 ) - damage.physical ), which can be simplified to ( damage.physical * 0.04 ).

The second equation should be ( damage.physical - ( damage.physical / 1.04 ) ).

Note that it's not as simple as taking the total damage done by physical DPS classes and applying the formula. Abilities such as rogue poisons, serpent sting, and shocks are not affected by BF and need to be removed from the total before calculating.

 

Apate

A. If you can't time it, maybe it isn't good for you. Maximum DPS potential only says so much in the real world of playing.

B. If you don't enjoy playing as the spec, it can still be viable. This doesn't mean that you have to spec that way.

See you, auntie.

 

Voxx

Time for me to re-hijack my thread back... and pose a new question:

What's your view on hit rating beyond 95?

I've seen people say that it shouldn't be ignored, but not stacked, I've seen people say it should be stacked like any other stat, and I've seen people say it should be ignored after 95.

The majority of the dps warriors that I respect as knowledgeable about the class suggest that after 95 hit rating, more +hit is a relatively weak stat when compared to +crit and +str. I want to know how valid people think this argument is. I personally believe that it shouldn't be ignored, and that it shouldn't be "stacked" per se, but focused on more than most suggest.

The major argument against stacking it is that +hit is for generating rage, and generating rage alone. Therefore after 95 hit rating (the point at which all special abilities will hit) all the extra hit rating is doing is generating more rage for you to use. This is negligible therefore since a fury warrior running with windfury and other raid buffs is rarely if ever starved for rage. What I don't agree with here is that +hit is only a means to gain rage. Every attack that lands instead of misses, is a source of damage as well as rage, not just rage. Granted the white attack could be a glancing blow and therefore have reduced damage and be incapable of a crit, it's still added damage.

If we're to compare hit with the other two important stats, crit and strength, then it's a little harder to see which comes out on top in terms of priority. Especially with the addition of gems to the game.

Looking at it from a whole % value where the warrior's stats are balanced, 16 hit rating is roughly equivalent to 1% more dps. As is 22 crit rating, and a variable amount of attack power/strength (depending how much attack power/strength the warrior has). Just looking at it this way, it's evident that strength/attack power becomes a weaker and weaker stat when the warrior has more of it. In order to gain 1% of the warrior's dps at 100 dps, only 7 strength is needed (14 attack power = 1 dps). This is much cheaper than getting 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. However, at a point where the warrior has 1000 dps, 10 dps is needed to increase the total dps by 1%. Now we need 140 attack power to gain the same overall percentage increase as we did previously, so this alternative is no longer cheaper than 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. The reason 22 crit rating and 16 hit rating are valued higher than an equivalent dps increase from attack power in my view, is that they are a static % increase in dps regardless of how much of each stat the warrior currently has.

Now obviously there are caps to how much +hit or +crit you can have and still be useful. In general however, at a point where the warrior is running with 2000 attack power, an increase in dps through crit/hit is much cheaper and easier to get than an equivalent increase in attack power. Another point I should mention before I'm flamed against it, is that there is also a balance that needs to be maintained in the "holy trinity" of warrior stats. The more strength you have, the less valuable it is compared to crit/hit, the more crit you have, the less valuable in comparison to the other two stats it is... and so forth.

Unfortunately, most other warriors I have seen discussing this point leave out +hit in the "holy trinity" so it becomes a holy duality. They claim that the extra rage gained from having that +hit is threat inefficient because it forces the warrior to use heroic strike/cleave more to dump rage. What I want to know is that, given the surplus of rage, why warriors think they need to dump all that rage inefficiently, why can't we accept the added white damage from +hit as simply more dps, and not use the surplus rage inefficiently.

Given these arguments, I want to take another look at the relative cost of a % increase in dps from the three different sources. Assuming the warrior is doing 1000 dps (respectable, but not insane), we would need 22 crit rating (1% crit), 16 hit rating (1% hit) or 70 strength (10 dps) in order to have the same impact on our overall dps. Granted that these numbers are rough, and that there are other intricacies that affect the usefulness of each stat, such as Impale and Flurry inflating the value of crit and Bloodthirst inflating the value of strength. However, the modification they make to this argument is small enough to be overlooked for the time being. When we look at these values, 70 strength is almost 9 full gems of +8 strength. 22 crit rating is almost 3 gems of +8 crit rating, while 16 hit rating is onl 2 gems of +8 hit rating. Judging the stats from this point of view, +hit is the cheapest way to get more dps (within a reasonable balance of stats). Then +crit, then +strength.

To make comparisons fairer, let's assume the warrior has the minimum stats that have been generally realized by the warrior community as "needed" to do effective dps. 33% crit to ensure an optimum Flurry uptime, and 9% hit to ensure that no special attacks miss. Given these values, added crit and added hit have no "major" impact on the warrior's dps, that is to say that added amounts of each stat have no value beyond an increase in general damge done. Beyond 33% crit, crit is useful because it doubles the damage of our white attacks, and multiplies the damage of our special attacks by a factor of 2.1 (from Impale). The added amount of damage from Impale, as well as the fact that added crit will affect both white and yellow damage, crit is a very valuable stat. Adding hit instead, our special attacks already are guaranteed to land, we have not reached the crit cap and therefore they do not subsequently increase our "useful" crit chance, all they do is increase the chances of our white attacks landing. This is a flat 1% increase in white damage. Now compare this all to strength, an added amount of 70 strength is needed to compare to 1% values of the other two stats, we can deflate this value a little by saying that more strength = more attack power = harder Bloodthirst hits, which form a substantial amount of our dps. Even so, we can safely say that this would not inflate the value of strength so much as to make 16 strength an equivalent dps increase as 16 hit rating or 16 crit rating (here I'm inflating the value of crit due to it's effect via Impale).

Judging by these comparisons, I would say that after 95 hit rating, (roughly) 33% crit and 1000 steady dps have been achieved, the priority of increasing stats should be +crit then +hit, then +str.

I'll stress this one last time however: I firmly believe that no stat listed should be taken into extremes that would put it out of balance with the other two.

Tell me what you think of this prioritization, discounting the new stat from BT (Haste).

 

Raydin

The most convincing argument I've seen in favor of the 33/28 for PvE concerns threat. Even though 17/44 warriors can pull some serious damage, there aren't a ton of encounters without a threat cap. If you can do enough damage to threat cap yourself with 33/28 instead of full fury, you may as well provide the Blood Frenzy debuff to your raid members who have more threat control (rogues, hunters.)

 

Grymm

"The majority of the dps warriors that I respect as knowledgeable about the class suggest that after 95 hit rating, more +hit is a relatively weak stat when compared to +crit and +str. I want to know how valid people think this argument is. I personally believe that it shouldn't be ignored, and that it shouldn't be "stacked" per se, but focused on more than most suggest."

A large portion of the "don't focus on hit" comes from the fact that once you hit T5 level gear, being above the 95 +hit rating is a given. If I had 0 +hit gems, I would be at 165 hit rating without having full T5 gear. You will passively achieve 200 hit rating without gearing for it. More stats is always more stats so you move from Bladespire warbands to Bracers of Eradication. That's a 17 hit upgrade. I don't think anyone is arguing that you should take an item with 5 more strength at the expense of 20 hit, merely that, 1 for 1, both strength and crit which increase all damage dealt are superior to hit which increases only white damage after 95. When you stack massive haste buffs, hit becomes more valuable. If you had a fight where white damage far and away overpowers your yellow damage, you would stack hit. In general, though, as your rage generation increases, your white damage component decreases due to the addition of HSs which, again, do not benefit from additional +hit. Additional hit levels out your rage generation and is generally helpful. It is not worth gemming for or specifically gearing towards.

"Granted the white attack could be a glancing blow and therefore have reduced damage and be incapable of a crit, it's still added damage."

The way this is worded sounds like you're not using a single roll attack table. Glances and crits are generally mutually exclusive.

"Looking at it from a whole % value where the warrior's stats are balanced, 16 hit rating is roughly equivalent to 1% more dps. As is 22 crit rating, and a variable amount of attack power/strength (depending how much attack power/strength the warrior has). Just looking at it this way, it's evident that strength/attack power becomes a weaker and weaker stat when the warrior has more of it. In order to gain 1% of the warrior's dps at 100 dps, only 7 strength is needed (14 attack power = 1 dps). This is much cheaper than getting 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. However, at a point where the warrior has 1000 dps, 10 dps is needed to increase the total dps by 1%. Now we need 140 attack power to gain the same overall percentage increase as we did previously, so this alternative is no longer cheaper than 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. The reason 22 crit rating and 16 hit rating are valued higher than an equivalent dps increase from attack power in my view, is that they are a static % increase in dps regardless of how much of each stat the warrior currently has. "

This paragraph is flat wrong. At 100% hit, a warrior gains 162.5% of his ap bonus for white DPS with additional returns due to flurry, special moves, and crits. 14 ap is not a 1 DPS increase. General predictions put it around 4-5 dps based on a .35 dps per AP return. 1% hit leads to an increase of white damage portion of your attack. You would need a WWS report to even guesstimate what kind of increase that is. 1% crit also increases flurry uptime, stacks with impale, and generates more rage from white hits. I did a brief test of AP versus Crit to see what was more beneficial to stack a couple pages back and the crossover point (crit scaling and ap being a flat return) was somewhere around 4500 sustained AP.

33% crit has nothing to do with perma flurry. There is no permaflurry. Your flurry uptime asymptotically increases 100% as your crit rate approaches 100%. Your flurry up time rises dramatically from 0% crit to 10% crit. It rises less rapidly form 10% to 20%. It rises yet more slowly from 20% to 30%. Raid buffed up in the upper 30s or low 40s, your flurry uptime only creeps up with more crit. 33% is in no way a magic number.

My personal set would be 200 hit rating basically entirely from base gear stats with 30% zerker crit and as much AP as I can jam onto that gear. If my gear adds up to 190 rating, so be it. If I'm at 240 rating, that doesn't hurt.

 

Kiranat

Indeed, the equations are incorrect, I'll edit my post. The formulas were snagged from a post earlier on in the thread, I never thought to double check them.

And yes, it's not that simple, however from all the logs and WWS I've looked through poison damage and (lol) serpent sting and the like produce almost negligable damage, 1-2% of the total damage being added with a sweeping formula. Obviously if you want an exact number it would be best to dig through recap or WWS and manually add everything up, but for the 15-20 DPS being mistakenly added if even that I'm not overly concerned. That said, Scorpid poison can add up to a pretty large amount so that's definitely worth taking out.

 

Voxx

Nowhere did I state that 33% crit chance guaranteed 100% flurry uptime, I merely stated that this is the number that is generally associated with the "optimum" uptime. The point at which added crit comes at such a low value for further flurry uptime that this added side-effect is overlooked.

I also did not state that the warrior in question had 100% hit, nowhere close to that. I said for the sake of the argument that they had 95 hit rating. 95 hit rating is not the same as 100% hit. In addition, I did say that the numbers were rough, perhaps you mistook how "rough" I intended them to be.

If we were to use the numbers you provided, combined with some information from my own warrior:

My warrior has about 66% of his dps being generated by white damage. If you want to propose that 1% hit applies to only increasing your white damage, then 1% hit should increase total dps by 0.66%.
At 1000 dps, that's 6.66 dps.

I'd like to know the exact circumstances that you view 14 AP as being equal to 4-5 dps, there are a lot of factors that would go into this. I also stated that for the sake of simplicity, we would overlook the fact that AP factors into other dps components. If I didn't state this in my post, then forgive me because I meant to.

Regardless of these facts, why don't we increase the numbers then to something more in line with what some warriors have been able to put out as steady dps. 1500-1600 isn't unreasonable for a warrior with good gear in a relatively non threat-sensitive fight. At this point, 1% hit still amounts to 1% of their white damage increase. which is now closer to 11 dps increase, while AP remains at the flat amount of (taking your numbers) 4-5 dps. this would mean you need 28 AP to equal 16 hit rating. Granted that this is still a better trade-off gem-wise, go ahead and take the strength gems. What I was trying to point out in my post, which I realize now that I seem to have done ineffectively, was that while Crit and Hit scale over a % of your total dps, AP scales at a flat rate.

Again I want to point out that I'm not trying to say that you should unreasonably stack the "cheaper" alternative to dps increase, but rather that at certain levels, some stats are more valuable than others, and that certainly on a basic level of understanding, crit and hit are an apparently much easier way to increase dps than strength.

 

Quixotic

You can do all the math you want, but when choosing gear, once you hit the hit rating required to never miss a special, then get the best item available to you for every slot, or the slot that is the biggest upgrade. As a warrior I would never gem for hit, but I will gladly pick up pieces with hit rating on them, if they are the best for a particular slot. For example, with my ideal setup I will have 315 hit rating, but I didn't try for such a high number, it just came naturally. AP also scales with hit and crit, it becomes more valuable.

Quixotic - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
Granted I'm not quite yet there with the gear I want, I can still pull 1800 dps on relative "benchmark" fights of BC like Teron.

The Armory

 

Voxx

Obviously when it comes down to two pieces of gear that are for the same slot, you would pick whichever was best based on which has more all around dps stats. What I'm saying is that when it comes to stats that you can pick and choose for, hit and crit come above strength for me. Again, while the +hit may come with the gear, the gear doesn't come immediately. For the time between point A and point B, the gems you choose have an impact on your immediate dps. So while you may not gem for hit in the end, do you gem for hit in the intermediate. And my point here is that yes, gem for hit and crit rather than stacking AP.

Disclaimer: Balance all three, don't "stack" any stat.

 

Kasi

Just a quick question about arms warriors here. We have one in our raid and my previous experience lies more towards fury warriors. I'm arms in PVP now, but I've never done Arms in anything more than a 5 man. The question I guess is how much dps can an arms warrior manage to do in a raid setting if they don't have a shaman dropping WF for them? We only have one enhancement shaman and he's not always there. 1-2 elementals, but they generally go with caster groups or the tank group right now if the mts need more dodge (like for Gruul)

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Basically looking at Kaidenn here. What could I advise to help him up his damage on this? 370 dps over the instance looks low. I know partly that is due to having just Thunder and not Deep Thunder, and a lot to not having a shaman, but I know that I've been able to on my warrior get consistently higher dps than that, even without WF.

 

Muarf

Afaik, it only applies to MELEE and Physical dmg, so only hunter's pet physical dmg (not scorpid poison) and no rogue poisons and shaman shocks

and i don't know about bleeding effects (rend, deepwounds, feral dots, etc.)

 

Lopert

I want to ask for some advice. I have read this thread since page one and I am having trouble figuring out DPS as a 17/44 Fury warrior. I see others do well into 1K DPS on any given fight and the most I have been able to pull off was 550.

I was a rogue pre BC and it was easy to attain and maintain top DPS but now I am relegated to the bottom of the top 10 list.

What am I doing wrong. For the life of me I cannot figure it out. Any and all suggestions will be taken.

is it my gear, weapons, or attack sequence?

 

Quixotic

Your gear is fine to at least get 900+, keep WW and BT on cooldown, keep rampage up at all times, and spam HS to burn extra rage. It's more of a priority system as a fury warrior, not really a set attack rotation. Use HS only when you know you will be able to get your WW+BT off the instant they come off cooldown. Also make sure that your groups are set up properly (our typical setup is warrior/rogue/rogue/shaman/feral, and you are using sunder/faerie fire/curse of recklessness, and maybe change around people's specs like survival hunters/enhancement shaman to increase overall raid dps.