Trins

Its all physical types of damage done, not just melee.

 

Muarf

You're right, I don't know why I thought it was melee only, sorry.

(link)

All hunters' shots except Arcane Shots and stings are affected by bloodfrenzy then.

(and bleeding effects?)

 

Voxx

Blood Frenzy affects bleeds as well. You can try it out by looking at the damage your deep wounds does without the talent, and then with the talent. You should notice a slight difference. (Basically this means it affects rogues' Rupture and druids' Rip/Lacerate as well)

 

Colan

Slight derail (mabye)- It's widely known that for fury warriors strength > crit rating > hit (point for point). But does anybody know how these stats stand for arms warriors?

Sure hit is somewhat pointless past 5% but what about crit & strength? Should one try to balance them both or is one clearly better than the other?

 

Paa

Well if your axe spec crit comes easy, I used to raid with 45% crit raid buffed and i didn't socket any gems for crit.

But arms is probably the same as fury in that you need to keep flurry going as much as possible (Ive not raided as arms for a while now tho so could'nt check)

 

Voxx

This has been addressed several times already in the thread

I'd like to note that "point for point" strength > crit > hit is a pretty rough statement to make. As well as the fact that hit past 5% is not useless for arms, hit past roughly 8.6% is "useless."

 

madrussian

Is there a discussion about +armor pen vs +haste anywhere? Im trying to decide between [Pillager's Gauntlets] and [Onslaught Gauntlets]. Also wondering wether armor pen would be better to stack post haste nerf.

 

Quixotic

[Grips of Silent Justice] are better than both. Also will be providing a WWS for this weeks upcoming hyjal clear, finally got my mh :P.

 

Calgar

I think you are the first warrior i've ever seen with EITHER warglaive....let alone both.

How did the rogues like you taking them?

 

Emeraude

Pfft, if he's active enough to earn them his Rogues can cry a river for all I care.

 

Calgar

That sounds a whole lot like "Screw the guild, I want them, so I will take them."

That said, i was asking because, like him, I have top DKP in my guild mostly due to the fact that i have no competition on all the gear i get, and only cross-class items like rings, necks and weapons cost me big. I was interested to see their reaction, as i've caught some flak for taking a ring of lethality, and my talon of al'ar. The warglaives would be about 50 times as drama prone i'd imagine.

There's probably a reason why there's about 50 times as many rogues with the warglaives compared to warriors.

 

Emeraude

Goes by a guild to guild basis.

I'm definitely a contender for the 1st or 2nd pair for Warglaives, provided we ever get to Illidan. ^^ But then I have almost 100% raid attendance, why would I pass for somebody with much lower raid attendance? Or why would somebody have priority over me because of their class? Heh.

Like I said, guild to guild basis.

 

Zorac

Well its also a issue of putting them to use.. I mean sure a warrior would do sick dps with them on a non dps sensitive encounter. But on all others it would be a wasted weapon really. A warrior cannot handle them due to no aggro wipe.

 

zeratulgr

As much as I would love to have them,If your guild is preparing for sunwell and taking things seriusly they go first to all active rogues then to dps warriors,sad but true we cant use their real potential atm.

 

Grymm

"Nowhere did I state that 33% crit chance guaranteed 100% flurry uptime, I merely stated that this is the number that is generally associated with the "optimum" uptime. The point at which added crit comes at such a low value for further flurry uptime that this added side-effect is overlooked."

The core of my point is that the flurry uptime equation is a smooth curve. There is no inflection or point beyond which you can definitely say you are getting less. Weapon speed can influence flurry uptime by a few percent. I have heard 25% crit, 28% crit, 30% crit, and 33% crit as cited goals. How you would determine your optimum crit would be 100% dependend on the gear you are using, the raid buffs you expect, and what kind of calculation you make on your rotation to say at some point the itemization cost of crit dips below strength. And, actually, strength generally outweighs crit until 4k ap. I have the amount of crit I have because of the gear base stats, spec, and number of yellow gem slots (4 str/4crit). It seems to be enough. My approach to crit will likely stay that way.

"I also did not state that the warrior in question had 100% hit, nowhere close to that. I said for the sake of the argument that they had 95 hit rating. 95 hit rating is not the same as 100% hit. In addition, I did say that the numbers were rough, perhaps you mistook how "rough" I intended them to be."

You stated that at 100 dps, 14 ap is a 1% increase and then used that to say that at 1000 dps, it takes 140 ap to be a 1% increase. That, for various reasons is wrong. For a DW warrior negating misses and the other events I mentioned like crits/haste/specials, you get a 162.5% return on AP on white attacks. This means that 14 ap would already be worth 1.625 dps. Now you factor in specials, haste, and crit which enhance AP value while adding in misses/glances/dodges which decrease it. I'll break it down later.

"My warrior has about 66% of his dps being generated by white damage. If you want to propose that 1% hit applies to only increasing your white damage, then 1% hit should increase total dps by 0.66%.
At 1000 dps, that's 6.66 dps."

My white damage breakdown is in the low 40s and dipping. The harder I hit, the more rage I have, the more MH swings I turn into heroic strikes. Increasing my gear, AP, haste, and synergy will only enhance this effect. Also, a 1% +hit is not 1% more white damage. If you hit 90% of the time with no glances and no crits, you would see a 1/.9 percent increase. That's more than 1%. If you crit 90% of the time (all of your hits), that would be a 1/1.8 increase which is less than 1%. This is where WWS logs come in handy as you can look directly at how much you can gain from a particular stat change.

"I'd like to know the exact circumstances that you view 14 AP as being equal to 4-5 dps, there are a lot of factors that would go into this. I also stated that for the sake of simplicity, we would overlook the fact that AP factors into other dps components. If I didn't state this in my post, then forgive me because I meant to."

The .35 dps per AP point I cite is from a thread on AP to DPS returns for all classes. I never calculated it persay, but it does represent something someone thought about so it's likely a fair ballpark number. Other classes like Enh Shaman and rogues were close but lower on rates of returns. You know the rogues spent 94283402893 hours on that.

Lets say you have the following stats: 35% crit, 85% total hit (15% = misses + dodges), and 3k ap. I don't have this much hit in a raid but I also usually have more AP. I have 2717 ap while farming so maybe 3k raidbuffed is low. I think they're middling values for guys doing TK/SSC but before haste gear and armor penetration. Either way, it's a good start.

I'm going to ignore partial percents as this is just ballpark napkin math. Use 2.4 speed 93 dps weapons but don't match them on flurry.

You hit 95% of your BTs for 35% crit (with impale) and 60% hits. We'll use 10% armor reduction (90% damage). You do this every 6 seconds. This is .35*3000*.45*2.2*.9 + .6*3000*.45*.9 = 1665 average damage or 277.4 dps>

You hit 95% of your WWs for 35% crit (with impale) and 60% hits. You do this every 9 seconds. .35*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)*.9*2.2+.6*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)*.9 = 909.3 damage or 101 dps.

White attacks: First we have to predict your flurry time. Flurry will be affect on the number of specials versus the number of average swings. Assuming all attacks are flurried and that misses do not use flurry charges (someone told me this and I haven't proven it out), your flurry time is the time for 3 successful hits at 2.4/1.25 speed, dw. This is 3.39 seconds. (3*2.4/1.25/.85/2 = 3.39 seconds). During that time you attempt 3.39/6 bts and 3.39/9 wws. I'll ignore hamstrings. Thats .942 extra swings. You attempt 2.4/3.39 mh swings (unflurried for lower value) for .2*2.4/3.39 WF procs. 1.08 total bonus swings. Flurry uptime = 1-(1-.35)^(3+1.08) = 82.7%. In practice, this may be high (maybe the misses/dodges do use charges) or low (spamstring). It's not completely out of line. Your average swing speed is then 82.7% of 2.4/1.25 plus 17.3% of 2.4 which is 2.00. Luckily, that's a nice number.

Your MH dps is [.35*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)*2+.24*.75*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)+.26*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)]*.9/2
Your OH dps is MH dps *.625
MH: 378.33 OH: 236.46

Your Total DPS is BT DPS + WW DPS + MH DPS + OH DPS.

992.4 DPS total. I can recalc all this for a few more AP and find the change.

Some notes: AP costs half the amount on items as hit rating or any rating. When given as str, the expect raid AP of a warrior from 1 str is between 2.42 and 2.66 (with and without UR). I'll crunch some more numbers. This is where I get my understanding of the value of AP.

Edit: So I put the above into Excel for some quick testing. Using the preceeding stats, making the following singular changes lead to the following DPSs.

2.7 speed weapons: 1006.3 dps (0)
Using 2.4 speed 95 DPS weapons: 997.1 DPS (??)
Adding 20 AP: 996.8 DPS (7.51/8.26)
Adding 10 hit rating: 995.8 DPS (10)
Adding 10 crit rating: 997.1 DPS (10)

The cost of each change is in paranthesis. AP can be from strength with kings and imp zerker with or without unleashed rage. Lower number is with.
DPS per itemization point:
AP: .533/.586 (higher is with unleashed rage)
Hit: .34
Crit: .47

 

Apate

9% without WEx if you have been following the weapon skill adjustment discussion.


Also, I'm not sure that this thread has any reason to discuss what a guild does or does not do regarding loot distribution. That is a bit silly and probably wholly unproductive.

See you, auntie.

 

Trazhenko

Maybe someone wouldn't have priority *purely* based on class. You're not gonna hear, "So, yeah, we are trying this new recruit and he's a rogue, guess he gets the Illidan sword over our warrior with 100% attendance for 2 years who gets #1 damage all the time".

You're more likely to hear, "Rogue A and Warrior B have comparable attendance and dedication, but Rogue A does more damage in 99% of fights and isn't threat capped like Warrior B, so it would be better to go to Rogue A". (This is all hypothetical, maybe you are wrecking the rogues in every fight and they cry themselves to sleep at night.)

In a perfect world, with a perfect raid group, with raiders who all play their classes to the fullest potential, the warglaives are probably better suited as rogue weapons.

However, in a real raid, it definitely depends on your people. In my guild, we have 2 rogues on the roster. There is no backup rogue. We've both been raiding with the guild for over 2 years and rarely miss a raid. In fights that aren't excessively melee-hostile (or maybe excessively AoE friendly), you can expect us to be 1 and 2 on damage (barring random fluke death). If/when we kill Illidan and see warglaives, I sincerely hope that one of us will get them.

But maybe Emeraude's rogues aren't as dedicated. Maybe they are underperforming. Maybe his guild has had a lot of rogues burn out and is constantly recruiting new ones, while he is there every raid delivering a top-notch performance.

There are certainly circumstances under which a warrior would get first crack at the warglaives, but it seems most guilds who have gotten the drops have had a reliable and top-performing rogue to give them to.

 

Emeraude

Exactly.

(And I'm a girl, QQ).

 

Trazhenko

Psshhh, there's no GIRLS on the internet :P. (sorry)

 

Grymm

I'm pretty sure there are more girls on the internet then actually exist in real life if you catch my drift.

 

Dralmoo

So, how do you not get yourself killed with the Warglaives? Like all DPS warriors, I /drool over them, but I have to admit that is a concern

 

Quixotic

I have a very good tank (Quigon for those who see him post here) and aggro is rarely a concern.

Also I did get the second pair for those of you asking about it, there is no way I'd ever take the first one over a rogue. The Armory

 

Natural

Quixotic is correct. At the T6 level threat is not that much of an issue.

Only a few fights are threat limited for warriors:
- RoS due to 45 second pure damage burn + DW/Bloodlust/Reck/Haste potion
- Bloodboil, but everyone is limited here so it's no different for warriors
- Council (marginally threat limited, but it's a slow-and-steady fight by design)
- Rage Winterchill if you get lucky with the Death & Decay (who cares)

White/Heroic damage is equally valuable to fury warriors & rogues so the haste bonus proc of the weapon is of equal value. The "rogue centric" part of this weapon is the high top end for sinister strikes, but warriors also benefit highly from a slow MH.

Notably, the T5 encounters are typically more threat limited by design.

 

Grymm

Good to hear. As it were, I'm already slipping tidbits to our tanks on things to read/do to up their threat. I pulled Tidewalker last week somewhere during execute phase from a feral tank (who was probably on cruise control for part of the fight) and who's Omen was not correctly updated perhaps. I wouldn't have blown reckless if I knew I was that close on threat. I thoroughly enjoy fights where pulling aggro is not a risk.

 

Gokey

As a fury warrior with a good tank, I'm also able to go all on pretty much every fight in BT with the exception of RoS.

It's too bad we have 3 rogues with 100% attendance that have been in the guild forever, which means I won't see the warglaives until a 4th pair drop... which is unlikely.