Future of a DPS Warrior - Page 50

Tiburon11 · 09/20/07, 6:58 PM

Originally Posted by Grymm

And, actually, strength generally outweighs crit past 4k ap.

I assume you mixed these stats up. As you gain more AP, crit becomes more important. The statement would suggest some sort of diminishing returns on crit (something more significant than flurry uptime), or AP being non-linear, neither of which are true.

Originally Posted by Grymm

AP: .533/.586 (higher is with unleashed rage)
Hit: .34
Crit: .47

Unleashed Rage does not increase the value of AP. Contrarily, it increases the value of Crit, for the same reason cited above.

zeratulgr · 09/21/07, 5:00 AM

Originally Posted by Natural

Quixotic is correct. At the T6 level threat is not that much of an issue.

Only a few fights are threat limited for warriors:
- RoS due to 45 second pure damage burn + DW/Bloodlust/Reck/Haste potion
- Bloodboil, but everyone is limited here so it's no different for warriors
- Council (marginally threat limited, but it's a slow-and-steady fight by design)
- Rage Winterchill if you get lucky with the Death & Decay (who cares)

White/Heroic damage is equally valuable to fury warriors & rogues so the haste bonus proc of the weapon is of equal value. The "rogue centric" part of this weapon is the high top end for sinister strikes, but warriors also benefit highly from a slow MH.

Notably, the T5 encounters are typically more threat limited by design.

Natural,with your very good gear level,can you go full out at High Warlord Naj'entus
and Teron Gorefiend?those are 2 examples i can think of tier 6 level bosses.
Some mount hyjal bosses too under good circumstances.Like not getting sleeped on Anetheron.

Its 100% sure a rogue benefits more,but yes attendance and performance must be considered. I checked the warglaive warriors guild,a rogue has them allready leaving 2 rogues open for the next drop.The one has daggers and might actually love combat dagger(yeah i know its over the top) and the other could just have lost the raid with the warglaives dropping.Since the warrior got 1 he gets auto priority for the next piece.Haha just a crazy scenario.I know if i would stay in my old guild i would even get a shot.

Natural · 09/21/07, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by zeratulgr

Natural,with your very good gear level,can you go full out at High Warlord Naj'entus
and Teron Gorefiend?those are 2 examples i can think of tier 6 level bosses.
Some mount hyjal bosses too under good circumstances.Like not getting sleeped on Anetheron.

Yes I can go pretty much full-throttle on the bosses I didn't mention in my previous post (Najentus/Teron/Anetheron) after the first 10-20 seconds of the fight. The tricky part is using death wish early enough for it to pop up again @ 19%, but not too early that you push threat limits at the beginning of the fight.

Recently, our enhancement shaman has helped the melee group by totem-twisting windfury & tranquil air for the first 30ish seconds of the fight. This let's us go full throttle fairly early on. If I manage threat properly I am still close to pulling aggro at the end of execute range, but that's my goal. For reference my personal bests on the encounters you mentioned are 1353 for Najentus, 1800 for Teron, and 1762 for Anetheron.

Grymm · 09/21/07, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Tiburon11

I assume you mixed these stats up. As you gain more AP, crit becomes more important. The statement would suggest some sort of diminishing returns on crit (something more significant than flurry uptime), or AP being non-linear, neither of which are true.

Unleashed Rage does not increase the value of AP. Contrarily, it increases the value of Crit, for the same reason cited above.

First bit - correct. I should have stated "until 4k ap." I can't pinpoint the point of change but it was around 4200 ap for my napkin math simulations. In actuality I wouldn't be surpised to see it several hundred ap in either direction.

Second bit - not what I was saying. The value I listed was for the dps increase divided by the itemization cost. Having UR up increases the amount of AP you get from 1 strength which decreases the itemization cost of 20 ap and enhances the rate of return for AP.

• LodeRunner · 09/21/07, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Natural

Recently, our enhancement shaman has helped the melee group by totem-twisting windfury & tranquil air for the first 30ish seconds of the fight. This let's us go full throttle fairly early on.

I like that. I'm gonna see if our Enhance Shaman is willing to do that.

Oh and Natural, do you have a WWS for that 1800 DPS on Teron? I'd be interested to see sustained 1800 on a warrior. I've only pulled off 15.5 but i haven't popped haste potions or anything.

Natural · 09/21/07, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by LodeRunner

I like that. I'm gonna see if our Enhance Shaman is willing to do that.

Oh and Natural, do you have a WWS for that 1800 DPS on Teron? I'd be interested to see sustained 1800 on a warrior. I've only pulled off 15.5 but i haven't popped haste potions or anything.

Here you go: Loading...

zeratulgr · 09/21/07, 2:12 PM

Very impressive since i get threat capped when i reach the 1,5k dps range!The tranquality totem twisting is really good but we have a resto shaman and i am sure he feels enough bothered with WF and strenght totem duty.....
Hehe the noumbers you show off are really close to our max potential a bit more maybe with less HS spamm.

Natural · 09/21/07, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by zeratulgr

Very impressive since i get threat capped when i reach the 1,5k dps range!The tranquality totem twisting is really good but we have a resto shaman and i am sure he feels enough bothered with WF and strenght totem duty.....
Hehe the noumbers you show off are really close to our max potential a bit more maybe with less HS spamm.

It's not very easy for a resto shaman to totem twist. Totem twisting costs a lot of mana. The enhancement shaman has the advantage of seemingly unlimited mana with JoW and shamanistic rage and are not always on their GCD due to ability timers. Conversely, a resto shaman will have much more limited mana and need to heal on almost every GCD. For these reasons I've never asked a non-enhancement shaman to totem twist for us, but instead just ask them to drop tranq for 20-30 seconds then switch to WF.

Edit: You should also make sure that your hunters are using Misdirection whenever it is up.

Ziet · 09/21/07, 2:46 PM

This is an excellent thread. It has been very helpful regarding the mechanics of fury warriors, spec variations, pro's/con's to each spec, suggested stats to achieve, as well as attack rotation.

I do have a question though. On trash in SSC I don't notice myself missing much (have 155 hit rating, Dual wield fury) and I am able to keep enough rage for the HS spam ontop of BT and WW when it is up. However on Bosses I do notice me missing a lot, to the point where I don't have enough rage to keep my rotation going, even without the HS spam. I was wondering if fury warriors need more hit than 155 to keep sustaned rage flow on bosses, or if fury warriors need different gear sets (one for trash, one for bosses with more hit). I have seen several posts about only 95 hit being required, but I can't imagine all the misses that would be going on and all the lack of rage resulting from it.

Again, thanks for such an epic thread, hope to see many more posts on it with insightful information.

I'd link my armory but I logged out in tank gear last night and am in class right now.

Apate · 09/21/07, 3:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ziet

This is an excellent thread. It has been very helpful regarding the mechanics of fury warriors, spec variations, pro's/con's to each spec, suggested stats to achieve, as well as attack rotation.

I do have a question though. On trash in SSC I don't notice myself missing much (have 155 hit rating, Dual wield fury) and I am able to keep enough rage for the HS spam ontop of BT and WW when it is up. However on Bosses I do notice me missing a lot, to the point where I don't have enough rage to keep my rotation going, even without the HS spam. I was wondering if fury warriors need more hit than 155 to keep sustaned rage flow on bosses, or if fury warriors need different gear sets (one for trash, one for bosses with more hit). I have seen several posts about only 95 hit being required, but I can't imagine all the misses that would be going on and all the lack of rage resulting from it.

Again, thanks for such an epic thread, hope to see many more posts on it with insightful information.

I'd link my armory but I logged out in tank gear last night and am in class right now.

In the thread in this forum called "Weapon Skill adjustment discussion" sp00n (I think) posted tables with required hit rating for given weapon skill, +hit from talents, and mob level. It is toward the end of that thread. This data is also incorporated into the most recent sheet by dr_allcom.

Grymm · 09/21/07, 3:24 PM

What are your general stats? I'm only working with 181 hit rating and I know on bosses if all I do is BT/WW, I will be sitting at 100 rage all the time. Trash might be a couple levels lower and thus your hit percent is a couple higher, but it's not a huge difference. Some of it is the amount of collateral damage on trash, especially the mage mobs. On a lot of pulls, I can't WW because there are sheep hiding everywhere so my rage is fairly full on the first mob of a pack. After that, I worry less about aggro and start dumping hard into HSes.

On Hydross I tank as the continuous aggro resets would hurt my dps fairly hard and I bothered to get the resists for add tanking. On Lurker, the a zerk rage + whirl equals nice bonus rage. On Tidewalker, zerker rage + quake gets you some good rage. On FLK, there isn't a lot of collateral damage to use. On Leo I dodge whirlwind fairly early so that's rarely a good dps fight for me. Vashj you're back to taking damage for rage. On a straight boss with no incoming damage, though, I usually WW, BT, and then HS a couple times when both are on CD such as Mag. Can't really say I have rage generation issues. I could see rage dumping to 10-15 rage and then missing 6 straight times. If I go for a BT and are short rage, I just pop bloodrage. Even on a miss streak, that should get you where you need to be.

p o j · 09/21/07, 3:30 PM

I think it might prove useful for a highly experienced and knowledgeable [fury] warrior to start up a thread akin to Malan's Enhancement Shaman thread (viewed here).

The question about 'how much hit should I shoot for' seems to be a common plague considering the answer is repeatedly the same. To answer the question, however, the importance is that all specials never miss- everything beyond that is typically achieved through whatever gear supplements.

I'd be interested in seeing a thread that discusses achieving 'perma-flurry', values of AP versus crit (they are mutual but both apply in very significant forms to the fury tree), etc. I suppose one can dig through the warrior spreadsheet and this thread along with other places, but I for one wouldn't mind seeing and contributing to a cataloged version.

On the topic of DPS warriors- I have a gear question I'm sure some of you might be able to answer. My apologies if this specific question has been asked before, I found nothing on it. It concerns Solarian's Sapphire
Now, this item is subject to a warrior's Commanding Presence, boosting its raw value. My guild usually runs a melee group setup as follows: Enh Sham, DPS Warr, Rogue, Rogue, Rogue.
In the hands of a warrior with imp shouts, the 70ap becomes 87.5ap. Now, applied to the enh shammy's Unleashed Rage, this would result to a further gain of 96.25ap. Apply a warrior's Imp Zerk Stance or a rogue's Deadliness, and the return would become 105.875ap to the individual. My question is, do all of these stack? Already, there is a collective gain of 481.25ap to the group via imp shouts and Unleashed Rage alone.

Ziet · 09/21/07, 3:30 PM

I have 'hand me down' DPS gear right now that I received when our other DPS warrior already had it. My stats in battle stance is 1604 AP, ~26% crit, and 155 hit rating. I was trying to get the ramulo trinkit just to push me over 180, then I can start getting more AP.

Anduryondon · 09/21/07, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by p o j

In the hands of a warrior with imp shouts, the 70ap becomes 87.5ap. Now, applied to the enh shammy's Unleashed Rage, this would result to a further gain of 96.25ap. Apply a warrior's Imp Zerk Stance or a rogue's Deadliness, and the return would become 105.875ap to the individual. My question is, do all of these stack? Already, there is a collective gain of 481.25ap to the group via imp shouts and Unleashed Rage alone.

Someone stated it stacks in this or another thread, why shouldnt it?

p o j · 09/21/07, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by Anduryondon

Someone stated it stacks in this or another thread, why shouldnt it?

Post 320.
Often tooltips can be misleading. What intuition tells me may not be what plays out. I provide a senario that might apply to other guilds and present a question that hopefully can be answered and confirmed for the benefit of many. The question didn't pertain to only shouts and the trinket.

Apate · 09/21/07, 3:51 PM

Regarding "a post like Malan's," I would hold off until some of the recent mumblings about a new feature here at EJ make their debut for prime time

I can't find the post right now either, but that Sapphire is fantastic. Interaction with Deadliness is the only thing I haven't really seen come up in discussion (to my memory).

Grymm · 09/21/07, 3:58 PM

Personally, I find the term "perma-flurry" irksome as it doesn't exist. Any time there exists a chance to not crit, there is a chance to not crit 3 hits in a row.

The Solarian Sapphire is an awesome trinket. If it didn't stack with anything, I'm pretty sure it would still be the highest raid dps trinket in the game.

p o j · 09/21/07, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by Grymm

Personally, I find the term "perma-flurry" irksome as it doesn't exist. Any time there exists a chance to not crit, there is a chance to not crit 3 hits in a row.

Noted. I'm alluding to stacking x amount of crit, that when coupled to y amount of instant attacks inside of 3 auto-attacks, will yield z% of flurry uptime. The only discussion I've seen on this (apparently uninteresting) topic is here: post 1067.

Originally Posted by Grymm

The Solarian Sapphire is an awesome trinket.

It's good, but just how good?

Calgar · 09/21/07, 4:38 PM

87.5 AP x 5 people = 437AP minimum (not including imp zerk stance, or deadliness or whatever)

437 AP = MINIMUM 31 dps...probably closer to double or triple that...so lets round off at around 70dps (31 dps is white damage, special:white damage ratio is 1:1 or 1.5:1 depending on class, so close to double or triple with napkin math)

Name another trinket that is ~70 sustained DPS, and 30 stamina.

Only one close is the pre-nerf Dragon-Spine Trophy...which i can't remember the exact figure, but 10-15% dps was thrown around (100-125 dps for a decked warrior)

Emeraude · 09/21/07, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by p o j

Noted. I'm alluding to stacking x amount of crit, that when coupled to y amount of instant attacks inside of 3 auto-attacks, will yield z% of flurry uptime. The only discussion I've seen on this (apparently uninteresting) topic is here: post 1067.

It's good, but just how good?

It's one of those trinkets you'd use at 80 because there's nothing else like it.

Rank 8 Battle Shout: 305
Rank 8 Battle Shout + [Solarian's Sapphire]: 375
Rank 8 Battle Shout: 305 x Commanding Pressence = 382 Battle Shout
Rank 8 Battle Shout + [Solarian's Sapphire] x Commanding Pressence = 469 Battle Shout

Rank 9 Battle Shout(Estimated): 400
Rank 9 Battle Shout + [Solarian's Sapphire]: 470
Rank 9 Battle Shout: 400 x Commanding Pressense = 500 Battle Shout
Rank 9 Battle Shout + [Solarian's Sapphire] x Commanding Pressence = 588 Battle Shout

Mulokmar · 09/21/07, 6:30 PM

A little bit off the subject, but the right thread I believe.. I just started Fury spec this week(17/44/0) for raiding and although I am loving the steady damage output although I am not sure if I am using the right weapons per my spec/attributes. Currently; 32%crit, 167hit, 1875AP and I am using MH Netherblade(From Alar) and OH AS2 Sword(the 1.5delay one). I have looked at some other Warriors and they are using 2 slow weapons. I know pre-bc most Warriors went with Slow/Fast. But now in BC this is new to me. 2 Slow weapons? Is there reason behind this? With high enough AP/crit I don't see why 2 Slow weapons would be a problem, but the general trend is Slow/Fast.

I maintained a solid 920dps on Morogrim this week(although I did not get to go completely all out because of MT aggro generation). I do feel room for improvement and was thinking maybe going with Talon from Alar or Talon from Morogrim for MH, and OH the Netherblade instead of the AS2 Sword. Is this worthwhile to do, or should I just stay with the trend Fast/Slow combo?

Anduryondon · 09/21/07, 9:13 PM

Just test the Spreadsheet for Dps Questions, but calculations showed that it doesnt really matter if you have a slow or fast offhand, personally i stay with fast offhands, due to less spiky rage gain.

Aedon · 09/21/07, 10:49 PM

IS there a new updated warrior Spreadsheet?? Say BT and hyjal loot?? Or close to??

• LodeRunner · 09/22/07, 3:06 AM

Originally Posted by Aedon

IS there a new updated warrior Spreadsheet?? Say BT and hyjal loot?? Or close to??

That would be a question for the DPS Warrior Spreadsheet thread. There are new versions of it but adding loot gives the creator a headache. Therefore you add your own loot stats to match the existing items and compare.

dr_AllCOM3 · 09/22/07, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by LodeRunner

[...] but adding loot gives the creator a headache.

Oh, nice. We have a volunteer for adding all the items. Just tell me when you're finished.