Nicensoft

My question is: How do you guys rate haste and how important is it to pursue in gearing as a Fury Warrior? As most Warrior DPS topics and posts found, this is a gray area that I never have seen discussed in great detail, such as acceptable loss in stats to achieve high static haste.

Since I have reached BT and tried to go the haste route though my AP took a 130 point drop, 4% was lost from crit dropping me to 27% and around 800 health for only a 10% static haste ( which will be nerfed some in this next patch ). Granted I have limited access to the complete gear from both BT / Hyjal to balance my stats, but is haste really worth it? Also I noticed most Fury Warriors that have completed both instances wear very little to none or they are always wearing two-handed gear set ups.


If anyone has or still uses a full haste gear set, what were your impressions and was it worth the loss of stats? After the patch is it still worth it?



Finally, sorry about all the questions in this one post regarding haste, when choosing your gear which of the follow options would you take?


Rings
Band of Devastation vs Ring of 1000 marks vs Ring of Lethality vs Unstoppable Aggressors Ring

Bracers
Swift Steel Bracer vs Furious Shackles vs Bracer of Eradication

Shoulders
Swift Steel Shoulders vs Onslaught Shoulder Blades vs Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Destroyer Shoulderblades

Gloves
Onslaught Gauntlets vs Pillager's gauntlets vs Grips of Silent Justice

Belt
Red Belt of Battle vs Belt of Seething Fury


I believe this is pretty much all the haste gear slots w/o going into weapons.




Any ways, hopefully someone who has a much better understanding then me or who has already experienced trying to full haste gear set up wouldn't mind taking their time to comment on this for me.




Thanks in advance,

Nicensoft

 

Hidden

After the patch, you need the same haste rating per percent attack speed increase as you need hit rating per percent hitchance increase.
As soon as 1% of your average damage per strike exceeds 1% of your char screen average damage, one haste rating is better than one hit rating. (I assume you're yellow hit-capped in BT easily anyway)
In other words, if your crit damage gain exceeds your damage loss from miss, dodge and glancings, you get a better benefit out of haste rating than hit rating.
If you add in Heroic Strike which should be hit-capped already, haste rating gets even better.

The bigger problem is a comparison of white damage only increasing stats(hit rating and haste rating) to stats increasing white and yellow damage(crit rating, attack power and armor ignore).

The second problem is that haste gear is generally worse itemized than other gear, most of the haste gear has only two damage stats (haste and attack power) while other items have three or four (attack power, crit, hit and armor ignore).

 

Anduryondon

Am I right when I say haste rating is the stat which increases threat higher than other ratings?

 

Hozz

I am 17/44. I think Haste procs are still very good but I do not think, with the 2.2 changes, passive haste is a very good stat when evaluating it from the item budget perspective. I would go with the following:

Unstoppable Agressor+Ring of 1000 marks

Bracers of Eradication

Blood-stained Pauldrons

Grips of Silent Justice

Red Belt of Battle

I would also mention the following gear you did not, but have access to based on your other choices:

Band of the Ranger-General. This is 1000 marks but better.

Deadly Cuffs. Leather...but better than the three you mentioned.

The Anetheron belt, and perhaps the Vashj belt, both leather, are a tad better than Red Belt of Battle but given how easy the Red Belt is to get...it may not make sense to upgrade depending on your loot system.

 

Turpin

you are confusing 2 seperate issues which are discussed in the guide.

1. You should not let your flurried weapon speed go below 2.5+lag because then you will not have enough time for 1 global cooldown in between slams. This is not a sliding scale. Anything above 2.5+lag has the same effect here.

2. Since slam is not normalized, doesnt it mean that slower weapons are better for a slam build? He tries to use math to answer this question and arrives at the answer that weapon speed makes no different, even if slam is not normalized. This is because with a slower weapon, while you get harder slam hits, you also get less frequent slam hits because there is more time in between auto attacks. He shows that these 2 things cancel eachother out (almost like blizzard intended it and that is why they dont normalize slam).

Again, they are 2 separate issues. The only thing they have in common is that they related to weapon speed.

 

Turpin

The other thing to remember is that the biggest jump is from +4 to +5 weapon skill. Basically it means, to be optimal, you want to get +5 weapon skill exactly and then go for other stats usually. In rating this means +20 weapon skill rating.

 

Natural

Your calculations are incorrect because they compare the final damage values instead of the bonus damage values.

Raw threat generated per damage point dealt is the same no matter what attack we use. What we need to compare is "How much harder will I hit with HS instead of a white attack" vs. "How much harder will I hit with Cleave instead of a white attack". You need to calculate the expected damage of an attack, including chances to miss, hit, glance, and crit based on the attack table.

To put this in an equation:

Note: Let ED() represent expected damage of an attack.

Threat Efficiency(HS) = [ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Threat(HS ability threat*)]
Threat Efficiency(Cleave) = [ED(Cleave) - ED(white)] / [Threat(Cleave ability threat*)]

The more "threat efficient" attack will depend on your gear. Period.

(E) * Ability threat refers to the 'useless threat' caused by using the ability. This does not include the threat caused by the damage portion of the attack.

 

Apate

9% appears to be the correct value for yellow/2h miss from the testing done in the weapon skill thread.

See you, auntie.

 

Tiburon11

I still have a bunch more to add, just gotta make time for it.

Reclaimed is currently looking for 2 Mages, 2 Warlocks, and a Holy Priest who are Elitist Jerks just like the rest of our guild.

 

Graul

I have zero hands on experience with the haste gear, but after the upcoming nerf, unless someone can actually show comparisons with the gear they have, I'd rather just go after the same old AP, Crit, Hit gear with some armor pen or haste on one or two items. I am not going to chase haste like I would have previously.

That's my logic behind it.

Is this to be used under the "rage is not a factor" mentality? Even if Cleave is superior in threat per damage, it's horribly inefficient in damage per rage on a single target.

 

Hidden

@that rumor with slam dps being weapon speed independant:
That isn't true at all, a little example with a very big speed difference to show the point for scaling only (so it doesn't include additional slam damage):

Weapon 1: 100 damage per hit, 1.0 attackspeed, 10 rage per hit
Weapon 2: 200 damage per hit, 2.0 attackspeed, 20 rage per hit
Weapon 3: 400 damage per hit, 4.0 attackspeed, 40 rage per hit

With a cast time of 0.7 for slam(due to lagg) and a rage cost of 15, you get the following results:
Weapon 1:
3 hits for 100 damage each generating 10 rage each having an interval of 1 second each
2 slams for 100 damage each costing 15 rage each having a cast time of 0.7 seconds each

Total: 500 damage in 4.4 seconds (=113,64 dps) with 0 excess rage per second

Weapon 2:
1 hit for 200 damage generating 20 rage having an interval of 2 seconds
1 slam for 200 damage costing 15 rage having a cast time of 0.7 seconds

Total: 400 damage in 2.7 seconds (=148.15 dps) with 1.85 excess rage per second

Weapon 3:
1 hit for 400 damage generating 40 rage having an interval of 4 seconds
1 slam for 400 damage costing 15 rage having a cast time of 0.7 seconds

Total: 800 damage in 4.7 seconds (=170,21 dps) with 5,32 excess rage per second

As long as slam's cast time and rage cost don't scale with weapon speed, slower weapons will always be better for slam dps.

 

Dralmoo

Despite the Haste nerf, the spreadsheet seems to rate 2x [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] as the highest DPS of all the combos I tried.What do people think is the ideal weapon setup now, pre-Warglaives?

 

Graul

Is the spreadsheet using the 2.2 values for haste, or prenerf? I just added a second Bludgeon in with a lower haste rating, assuming it was using prenerf.

 

zeratulgr

I have been testing in Blasted lands the dual [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] combination and the Dragonstrike Mainhand and [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] offhand combination.For me the second came out better on recap.Not by a lot but about 30-50dps more ,the test was made 3 weeks ago so i dont remmember exactly how better dragonstrike and swiftstell is compared to 2xswiftsteel bludgeon but the proc of dragonstrike just makes it superior even at execute range.

 

woo-haa

Another reason why haste items are lacking (even before patch) is that they have no sockets compared to some of their equivalents (Red Belt of Battle, Grips of Silent Justice and Furious Shackles). Sockets cost less item points than the equivalent of 10 item points (or even 12 with the unique gem). After this patch I think Band of Devastation is the only worthwhile item with passive haste, mostly because of it's ilvl 151. But even then it's questionable.

 

Hidden

I don't think it's that good for a Fury Warrior either, it's got too many points spent into stamina and it only has 2 damage stats as well.
As a MS Warrior I'll try going for some haste as it increases not only white damage but also slam damage but even then it's probably not going to make a difference to ordinary stats at all.

 

Quixotic

Haste nerf hit kind of hard, I was using shoulders/ring/ring/bracers to test this week, next week going to wear less. Wow Web Stats
Rather sloppy kill, had feral druid from about 30%-0, but died at 9% with reck/deathwish/bloodlust brooch/insane strength up, so should have been at least 1850 dps.

 

Gruntle

Sure, you are right that the expected damage is what should be used here (I assumed the expected damage to be 130/150 damage), BUT in your calculations you use Threat(HS) = 196. This is not true, the full threat from HS is Damage + Bonus threat (and the same for Cleave). So if I try to make a better formula to compute threat efficiency (calculated as the the ratio of damage (HS - white) and threat (HS - white)), I would use:

Threat Efficiency(HS) = [ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Threat(HS) - Threat(white)]=
[ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Bonusthreat(HS) + ED(HS) - ED(white)]

So if I say that ED(HS) - ED(white) is 376 (this means that, on average, a HS hit will do 376 more damage than a white hit), I get:
TE(HS) = 376 / (196+376) = 0.66

For Cleave, the amount of extra damage from the hit/crit will not be the same. This is because a crit with cleave will add less damage than a crit with HS (70*2 vs 176*2), The difference depend on your crit rate. Using my gear and checking the damage in my spreadsheet, Cleave will cause approximately 220 more damage than a white hit. Then:
TE(Cleave) = 220 / (220+130) = 0.63

And I find that HS is a little bit better. In terms of damage/rage Cleave has no chance vs single target ofc.

This will of course change with gear, it's not easy to calculate without using spreadsheets (which I've done here).

edit: made some things a bit clearer

 

Natural

Absolutely. HS is obviously more rage efficient. If we're worried about being threat limited, shouldn't we have rage to spare?

To be clear--I'm not necessarily suggesting to use cleave. I am only suggesting that we evaluate it correctly =)

 

Natural

These complications to the formula are unnecessary. The threat from the extra damage does not matter. The raw damage->threat conversion is the same no matter what ability you use. For comparison of heroic strike and cleave, the only thing that matters is the *useless threat* generated by the abilities themselves.

To be clear, I will update my original post to clarify that the "threat" I am referring to is the ability threat--not the damage threat.

Everything you say here I am incorporating into the "expected damage" of the ability. There's a decent amount of calculation that goes into this, including boss armor, level, and your gear.

Again, I am not advocating that people use cleave. I am advocating that people avoid making blanket statements without understanding the real calculations involved in making a comparison.

 

Dralmoo

Cell AA3 (which is used in the haste calc) has a value of '15.7' which is the 2.2 value for haste rating.

 

Amyannirving

This is perhaps an aside, but with the relentless earthstorm diamond nerf, which would be the best meta gem for a 17/44 DW warrior at the SSC/TK level of progression? (1774AP battle, 27%crit battle, 191hit rating)

 

Grymm

"As you might have noticed from reading above, there is a point on the table where you will have removed all hit from the table. At this point, adding more crit would be useless, since it would be ignored. This occurs at 21.4% crit for white attacks against a standard level 73 mob. You can, however, raise this cap by adding hit. Every 1% hit you add increases the crit cap by the same amount. Since there are no ways to reduce the dodge or glancing rates (except possibly weapon skill, who’s effects are still relatively unclear), there is a maximum amount of crit you can stack. This occurs for white attacks when you have capped your hit, which means the maximum useful amount of crit occurs at 49.4%. Note that yellow attacks have a much higher cap since they only have a 9% miss rate and they cannot glance."


Note on crit cap. I think you might have just misstyped or didn't think about this. The crit cap at 0 hit rating for white attacks is 42.4%. This is 100% minus 28, minus 5.6, minus 24. Looking at your hit table, it would be the addition of the hits (77.6-100 or 22.4) with the crits, 20. As DW, raidbuffed with LoTP and consumables, even mongoose procs don't put me over 42.4% (starting from around 31-32%). Adding hit will raise the crit cap from 42.4% but it's not as immediate an impedment as it used to be. Using just the base 9% hit, your crit cap is over 50%.

 

Gruntle

I don't agree, the extra damage produced by these abilities will also also produce more threat than a white swing, that means that you have to include that in the total threat produced by the ability to get the correct maths. The total threat from HS is more than from Cleve due to to two reasons, one being the extra added threat (196 vs 130), the other one being the extra added raw damage (176 vs 70). You can't just use the bonus threat to compare them.

Well I do agree with you, using Cleave or HS is not that easy to work out. I get the "expected damage" from a spreadsheet that does all the hit/crit calculations for me. This means that I can easily calculate these numbers for any given gear setup. I just don't think the formula you use is the correct one to get threat efficiencies.

 

Garithras

Let me try spelling it out a little differently. Total threat = (damage + bonus) * modifiers. We can agree on this, yes? HS threat = (damage + 176 [bonus damage] + 196 [threat bonus]) * mods. Cleave threat = (damage + 70 [bonus damage] + 130 [threat bonus]) * mods. The bonus damage is reflected directly in the combat log; there is no need to add additional bonus threat.

Yes, you are right that HS produces more threat than Cleave. But you do not have to add TWO bonuses onto the damage the ability causes to get the actual threat created, which is what you are arguing for.