The thing about BF, is you make a critical assumption that all of said classes are:
a.) DPSing consistently on the target
b.) Attacking the same single target
c.) Alive to begin with
So when you list all this cumultative dps- you neglect the real world factors which weigh heavily against it. Take for instance Vashj.
For P1, that BF will be optimally affected- but it is hardly needed in P1. Getting Vashj to 70% is an easy task for even guilds who are new to the encounter.
P2 that BF might affect 5 people.
P3 that BF is next to worthless during the 'make it or break it' moments where people are rooted, in/near toxin, running away with charge, or in transit to Vashj.
Solid DPS is needed at the end of fights in order to record a kill. When you are looking down the barrel at half of a raid being dead, you would quickly realize it's not what people bring to the raid for the benefit of others: it is the raw tanking/healing/cc/dps that you bring to the raid that is important, the rest is just icing. (2 arguable exceptions being Trees and Enh Shams)
a) Short of threat - which tends to not be a problem for 2h builds so much - why would it matter? If you're stopping DPS it doesn't matter what spec you are, you'll be doing zero DPS.
b) Why would melee be splitting DPS?
c) A dead DW Fury warrior will do just as little damage while dead
As for Stage 3 on Vashj - again, a rooted/dead/running Fury warrior will also do zero DPS. At the same time Vashj is a god-awful fight for all melee involved.
Meta gem choices are discussed elsewhere, but I will give my opinion. Neither of these gems is best IMO for a fury warrior. I prefer the Thundering Skyfire Diamond (chance to increase attack speed). It has been tested to have up to 1.6 PPM with what seems to be a hidden 40 second cooldown and increases haste by 240 for 6 seconds when it procs. The Relentless Earthstorm Diamond seems more suited to a rogue that gets more benefit from the 12 agi that a DPS warrior does. The Swift Skyfire miight be nice at low gear levels where you will get more bang out of 24 AP, but the TSD scales better at higher gear levels in this fury warriors opinion.
Yes I know if you armory me right now, I am prot, I tanked a Kara alt run last night, but I am fury for 25-man raiding, and I feel I have this DPS warrior thing down pretty good.
Meta gem choices are discussed elsewhere, but I will give my opinion. Neither of these gems is best IMO for a fury warrior. I prefer the Thundering Skyfire Diamond (chance to increase attack speed). It has been tested to have up to 1.6 PPM with what seems to be a hidden 40 second cooldown and increases haste by 240 for 6 seconds when it procs. The Relentless Earthstorm Diamond seems more suited to a rogue that gets more benefit from the 12 agi that a DPS warrior does. The Swift Skyfire miight be nice at low gear levels where you will get more bang out of 24 AP, but the TSD scales better at higher gear levels in this fury warriors opinion.
Yes I know if you armory me right now, I am prot, I tanked a Kara alt run last night, but I am fury for 25-man raiding, and I feel I have this DPS warrior thing down pretty good.
I ran with the Thundering Skyfire Diamond myself for a while (pre-2.2 mostly). I'll agree that it's a nice meta gem but I think over time Relentless Earthstorm will end up giving a bigger damage increase then Thundering Skyfire. It increases your crit by 0.36% and it increases the damage from crits by 3% (206% for white crits/226% for special crits).
I'd like to see where you got the 1.6 PPM from on the Thundering Skyfire diamond though, since when I ran with it it didn't proc that much (though it was fun seeing my 2.6 MH drop to ~1.0ish with meta haste trinket and 30% flurry).
a) Short of threat - which tends to not be a problem for 2h builds so much - why would it matter? If you're stopping DPS it doesn't matter what spec you are, you'll be doing zero DPS.
b) Why would melee be splitting DPS?
c) A dead DW Fury warrior will do just as little damage while dead
As for Stage 3 on Vashj - again, a rooted/dead/running Fury warrior will also do zero DPS. At the same time Vashj is a god-awful fight for all melee involved.
You didn't read it right. The argument is that BF benefits x number of classes. My argument is that the debuff is active, but the many failures that apply to its optimal usage. This isn't a MS vs fury debate, as you have interpreted it.
a) Short of threat - which tends to not be a problem for 2h builds so much - why would it matter? If you're stopping DPS it doesn't matter what spec you are, you'll be doing zero DPS.
I guess it's just me then, but i do have problems with threat, i guess there is nothing to do but pick up [Prism of Inner Calm]. If anyone has any suggestions of doing less threat, i'm all ears. I tend to run a ms/slam/ww/slam/rinse/repeat rotation. If i see i'm too high on threat, i usually just refresh BS or do a demoshout/thunderclap.
I just took enchanting as my secondary profession and now I got 375 skill, and my question is.
Weapon damage or +4 all stats on rings? You can see my armory for for info about my current gear and such.
I just took enchanting as my secondary profession and now I got 375 skill, and my question is.
Weapon damage or +4 all stats on rings? You can see my armory for for info about my current gear and such.
Best regards
Buttlern
I have no idea how much AP is equal to +4 weapon dmg (considering that you'd put it on both your rings.). But I'd suggest plugging it in the dps warrior spreadsheet there should be room at the bottom to plug it in (Page 37 of the dps warrior spreadsheet post #1834 describes how you can add weapon dmg since ring enchants are not available in the sheet at the moment).
Personally I'd go with +4 to all stats (16 AP and 8 agi giving a nice boost to both your AP and your crit and being affected by kings).
Apart from white damage only your HS & Whirlwind will be affected by the weapon damage enchant, the +4 to all stats will affect everything.
I guess it's just me then, but i do have problems with threat, i guess there is nothing to do but pick up [Prism of Inner Calm]. If anyone has any suggestions of doing less threat, i'm all ears. I tend to run a ms/slam/ww/slam/rinse/repeat rotation. If i see i'm too high on threat, i usually just refresh BS or do a demoshout/thunderclap.
[Fetish of the Sand Reaver] is still pure gold for threat capped fights (Bloodboil) or those "unleash hell" moments (RoS when my shaman fires bloodlust and I pop DW/recklesness/haste pot).
These are the only 2 occasions I use it though, if you don't have one I guess it's not worth farming AQ40 for it.
In general I have zero threat problems when dpsing with 33/28 compared to 17/44, as long as I have salvation of course. My dps is ~200 lower and I use a lot less "agro skills" like HS when I am arms/BF specced.
a) Short of threat - which tends to not be a problem for 2h builds so much - why would it matter? If you're stopping DPS it doesn't matter what spec you are, you'll be doing zero DPS.
b) Why would melee be splitting DPS?
c) A dead DW Fury warrior will do just as little damage while dead
As for Stage 3 on Vashj - again, a rooted/dead/running Fury warrior will also do zero DPS. At the same time Vashj is a god-awful fight for all melee involved.
You didn't read it right. The argument is that BF benefits x number of classes. My argument is that the debuff is active, but the many failures that apply to its optimal usage.
I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make here; "the debuff is active, but the many failures that apply to its optimal usage" doesn't make sense. Are you saying that blood frenzy isn't worth it in a MS build, or that blood frenzy doesn't make arms dps comparable to fury dps, or what?
I understand what you mean about the power of the debuff going down the more dead physical DPS there are in the raid, but successful T6 boss kills don't typically allow for many deaths to begin with, at least not for most of the fight.
I believe he is referring to the uptime of the actual debuff itself, rather than the assumed power of 100% uptime.
Dry streaks on crits, other debuffs knocking Blood Frenzy off the list, whatever the reason, for the most part, you can't assume that Blood Frenzy has a 100% uptime and therefore affects all physical damage for every second of the fight/raid.
I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make here; "the debuff is active, but the many failures that apply to its optimal usage" doesn't make sense. Are you saying that blood frenzy isn't worth it in a MS build, or that blood frenzy doesn't make arms dps comparable to fury dps, or what?
I understand what you mean about the power of the debuff going down the more dead physical DPS there are in the raid, but successful T6 boss kills don't typically allow for many deaths to begin with, at least not for most of the fight.
Deaths are 1 example listed. The other 2 being either that physical dps is being used elsewhere where the debuff is not active, or that the dps isn't happening altogether.
Hence the 'many failures' to 'optimal usage' of the debuff. Which brings it back to my statement that raw dps/tanking/healing/cc is what is important, group stacking and raid debuff choice is secondary. Calculating x number of classes doing an avg of y damage each, contributing an optimal value of z additional dps thanks to BF is good, but it neglects any senario save for a simple tank'n'spank.
In a fight like Patchwerk, or Lurker, yes, I can see bringing an MS-specced BF debuffer. But when you incorporate multiple targets, movement, and/or disabled dps (remote toy, roots, mind control etc), you quickly devalue its worth. Vashj is the example used, as all aspects are present.
You didn't read it right. The argument is that BF benefits x number of classes. My argument is that the debuff is active, but the many failures that apply to its optimal usage. This isn't a MS vs fury debate, as you have interpreted it.
What I gathered from your post is that you don't believe BF is viable because of X number of circumstances that need to be met, I was simply trying to point out that (with the exception of P2 Vashj) it's a moot point.
Originally Posted by Mjollnir
In a fight like Patchwerk, or Lurker, yes, I can see bringing an MS-specced BF debuffer. But when you incorporate multiple targets, movement, and/or disabled dps (remote toy, roots, mind control etc), you quickly devalue its worth. Vashj is the example used, as all aspects are present.
I still don't see your point here.... In fact when your BF warrior is rooted he's effectively doing more damage than anyone else who is rooted since BF still affects hunters and any melee who aren't rooted. If you're toyed the same applies, and if you're MCed it still applies.
Past that I still can't think of any fights where there's any real multiple-target DPS.
Originally Posted by Gaise
I believe he is referring to the uptime of the actual debuff itself, rather than the assumed power of 100% uptime.
Dry streaks on crits, other debuffs knocking Blood Frenzy off the list, whatever the reason, for the most part, you can't assume that Blood Frenzy has a 100% uptime and therefore affects all physical damage for every second of the fight/raid.
The chance of not critting for 12 seconds is pretty slim, and the debuff can be reapplied with Rend (lol) in a pinch.
What I gathered from your post is that you don't believe BF is viable because of X number of circumstances that need to be met, I was simply trying to point out that (with the exception of P2 Vashj) it's a moot point.
I still don't see your point here.... In fact when your BF warrior is rooted he's effectively doing more damage than anyone else who is rooted since BF still affects hunters and any melee who aren't rooted. If you're toyed the same applies, and if you're MCed it still applies.
Past that I still can't think of any fights where there's any real multiple-target DPS.
Almost. From the Vashj encounter I draw my examples, but they can be applied to any fight.
Breaking it down:
Boss is at 100%. Let's say 8 physical dps present, doing a total of 8000dps. In lieu of a fury warrior, the raid brings a BF debuffer. An additional 320dps is provided.
Boss is at 20%. There are only 4 physical dps present (BF is one of them), doing a total of 4000dps. The worth of your debuff is now 160dps.
As your number of physical dps declines, be it to deaths, being cc'ed, split, or in transit to/from the target with the debuff, so does the overall worth of BF. Crunch time isn't when things are at the start of a fight or when everything is going smooth, crunch time is when you're down to the wire, and you need to do everything you can with what you've got.
For you to bring a raw dpser, such as fury, in lieu of your BF debuffer, they will need to make up the difference that BF would otherwise generate. We'll say that for an equally geared, equally played, equally group stacked choice, fury will put out 200dps more than your arms guy (this number is arbitrary, but I hope no one tries to argue fury dps > arms dps, especially following the WF totem nerf).
Boss is at 100%. 8 physical dps, doing a total of 8200dps.
Boss is at 20%. 4 physical dps (fury is one of them), doing a total of 4300dps.
DPS is needed at the end of the fight when things have hit the fan. Consistancy is the main ingredient to success, both the microcasm of this BF debate, as well as the macrocasm of guild leadership. If I was making up a raid, I'm going to bring players and group makeup that yield consistant results.
The numbers chosen are arbitrary to make the point. I'm saying bringing a BF debuffer is nice, but in the end what is most important is someone in that melee dps slot that is:
1. consistant in their dps contribution (from start to finish of a fight), not the buffs/debuffs they provide
2. significant in what they contribute via dps (an obvious no-brainer)
Edit: To my knowledge, nowhere did I mention anything about the buff not being active? 'Apply rend in a pinch lol' is cute however.
Almost. From the Vashj encounter I draw my examples, but they can be applied to any fight.
Breaking it down:
Boss is at 100%. Let's say 8 physical dps present, doing a total of 8000dps. In lieu of a fury warrior, the raid brings a BF debuffer. An additional 320dps is provided.
Boss is at 20%. There are only 4 physical dps present (BF is one of them), doing a total of 4000dps. The worth of your debuff is now 160dps.
As your number of physical dps declines, be it to deaths, being cc'ed, split, or in transit to/from the target with the debuff, so does the overall worth of BF. Crunch time isn't when things are at the start of a fight or when everything is going smooth, crunch time is when you're down to the wire, and you need to do everything you can with what you've got.
For you to bring a raw dpser, such as fury, in lieu of your BF debuffer, they will need to make up the difference that BF would otherwise generate. We'll say that for an equally geared, equally played, equally group stacked choice, fury will put out 200dps more than your arms guy (this number is arbitrary, but I hope no one tries to argue fury dps > arms dps, especially following the WF totem nerf).
Boss is at 100%. 8 physical dps, doing a total of 8200dps.
Boss is at 20%. 4 physical dps (fury is one of them), doing a total of 4300dps.
DPS is needed at the end of the fight when things have hit the fan. Consistancy is the main ingredient to success, both the microcasm of this BF debate, as well as the macrocasm of guild leadership. If I was making up a raid, I'm going to bring players and group makeup that yield consistant results.
The numbers chosen are arbitrary to make the point. I'm saying bringing a BF debuffer is nice, but in the end what is most important is someone in that melee dps slot that is:
1. consistant in their dps contribution (from start to finish of a fight), not the buffs/debuffs they provide
2. significant in what they contribute via dps (an obvious no-brainer)
Edit: To my knowledge, nowhere did I mention anything about the buff not being active? 'Apply rend in a pinch lol' is cute however.
The thing with this argument is that it's the exact same deal with a feral druid or enh shaman for use in a DPS group. Their DPS on their own is quite lackluster, but their buffs (moreso with the shaman) are what sell them.
I'm consistently top 5 on meters in my guild, generally only 50-60 DPS behind our fury warrior (depends alot on the fight though). Yes, BF is better with more people alive, at the same time on the note of consistency there are only two fights where "random" deaths should ever be an issue. Gorefiend being a huge one, and having god-awful luck on Vashj being the other.
The numbers in your examples are a touch off as well, from example 1 to 2 the raid loses 120 DPS :P You need to keep in mind that BF scales very, very well. When we were first going into BT BF was giving us ~200-225 DPS increase as our melee DPS averaged about 1000-1400 per person, currently our lowest melee DPSer (feral druid) is doing about 1200 DPS, me at 1525, fury at ~1600, and rogues varying between 1700-1900 depending on gear, so it is now netting almost 500 DPS. This is using Gorefiend as an example, as there are really no threat limitations.
The downtime was in reference to a different post, and no, I have never once had Rend on my hotbar since about level 8 :P
The thing with this argument is that it's the exact same deal with a feral druid or enh shaman for use in a DPS group. Their DPS on their own is quite lackluster, but their buffs (moreso with the shaman) are what sell them.
I'm consistently top 5 on meters in my guild, generally only 50-60 DPS behind our fury warrior (depends alot on the fight though). Yes, BF is better with more people alive, at the same time on the note of consistency there are only two fights where "random" deaths should ever be an issue. Gorefiend being a huge one, and having god-awful luck on Vashj being the other.
The downtime was in reference to a different post, and no, I have never once had Rend on my hotbar since about level 8 :P
I don't know what enh sham you run with, but ours puts out about 90% of our rogues' dps. This solidifies my point. I would rather bring a high dpser than a mediocre who is going to boost 4 others.
50-60dps tells me you either out-gear him, out-experience him, out-consumable him... or are just plain better than him.
I do, for the defensive stance hotbar, but don't ask me how or why. >< (I do apologize for misreading the first time, your response was indeed to a different poster.)
I don't know what enh sham you run with, but ours puts out about 90% of our rogues' dps. This solidifies my point. I would rather bring a high dpser than a mediocre who is going to boost 4 others.
50-60dps tells me you either out-gear him, out-experience him, out-consumable him... or are just plain better than him.
I do, for the defensive stance hotbar, but don't ask me how or why. >< (I do apologize for misreading the first time, your response was indeed to a different poster.)
Again - Gorefiend as an example:
Zaidel (Enh Shaman) does about 1350 DPS, this could be another 50 or so higher, but he does some totem twisting which eats up GCDs.
Shaitain (our best Rogue) does roughly 1850 DPS.
There have been some posts in the past with people not being able to figure out our fury warrior's damage, and I really can't tell you. We've both done the same content, have the same "tier" of gear, and use the same pots/flasks/food. I have never had the chance to play with any other fury warriors of equivalent gear so I can't really tell you.
My roommate is in your guild - unless you have any objection I'd like to take a look over your guild's damage meters and raid makeup so I can get a better idea of the comparisons between our makeups
We already have Gorefiend down for the week - I'll do my best to remember to WWS it (or Winterchill/Anetheron) when we do them.
I have seen a couple of things on Gorefiend that might account for DPS oddness.
Gorefiend loves to kick the shit out of WF totems. They need to be redropped a lot.
Also one time my DPS was just terrible on him and I could not figure out why at first glance. I went back and looked at the WWS more, and me and one of the Rogues (whose DPS was also way below average) were getting parried like crazy, as if we were attacking from his front, which we definitely were not. I have seen subsequent parses where he has parried me multiple times as well, its like when he casts shadow of death or incinerate on folks, he is actually turning to face them or something. I mean I see him do that visually on my client but I figured he was not really supposed to be facing them for melee purposes.
Zaidel (Enh Shaman) does about 1350 DPS, this could be another 50 or so higher, but he does some totem twisting which eats up GCDs.
Shaitain (our best Rogue) does roughly 1850 DPS.
There have been some posts in the past with people not being able to figure out our fury warrior's damage, and I really can't tell you. We've both done the same content, have the same "tier" of gear, and use the same pots/flasks/food. I have never had the chance to play with any other fury warriors of equivalent gear so I can't really tell you.
My roommate is in your guild - unless you have any objection I'd like to take a look over your guild's damage meters and raid makeup so I can get a better idea of the comparisons between our makeups
We already have Gorefiend down for the week - I'll do my best to remember to WWS it (or Winterchill/Anetheron) when we do them.
Yes, you bring a valid point. If the person in question is not just dropping totem totems and going balls out, their own dps will be gimped. I'd assume with less micro on his totems and/or other things he might do, he would see a significant boost in his own dps. Again, the dps he brings, just he and he alone brings, is respectable. He chooses to burn GCDs of his own accord.
I've no objection- but you'll fail to find any solid comparisons in BB. I am rarely pure dps (fury) spec, and even rarer that I'm placed with the enh sham now that an inactive MSer has returned. I'm usually placed in the leftover group as I am brought to OT stuff and dps when not needed to tank (a pity, but there is only so much room for melee dps slots).
Edit: Who is this scoundrel you claim as roommate?
In a fight like Patchwerk, or Lurker, yes, I can see bringing an MS-specced BF debuffer. But when you incorporate multiple targets, movement, and/or disabled dps (remote toy, roots, mind control etc), you quickly devalue its worth. Vashj is the example used, as all aspects are present.
But Vashj is an exception. The hardest T5 fights (Vashj and Kael) aren't as good for BF, but BF can still contribute a lot to them, and it shines on pretty much every T6 fight, the exceptions being Supremus (immune) and Illidan (Flames are the hardest part of the fight, and they're immune too). Council is a multi target fight, but it's also a fight where any warrior doing decent damage is going to be threat capped, and I don't think the 10% threat change will change that
Assuming ~100% warrior uptime (Which is possible in most fights, we have an easier time getting back to a target compared to rogues and enh shamans) the contribution from blood frenzy is around Physical damage x.0385. if you don't have a BF warrior then the contribution would be Physical dps +4%. If you want to figure out if BF is worth it, just apply those numbers to your parses; BF falling off isn't something that happens with any frequency at all, given that deep wounds lasts 12 seconds
I ran with the Thundering Skyfire Diamond myself for a while (pre-2.2 mostly). I'll agree that it's a nice meta gem but I think over time Relentless Earthstorm will end up giving a bigger damage increase then Thundering Skyfire. It increases your crit by 0.36% and it increases the damage from crits by 3% (206% for white crits/226% for special crits).
I'd like to see where you got the 1.6 PPM from on the Thundering Skyfire diamond though, since when I ran with it it didn't proc that much (though it was fun seeing my 2.6 MH drop to ~1.0ish with meta haste trinket and 30% flurry).
It was tested by someone that was DW weapons with Mongoose to see exactly how high they could get the PPM, and they put their findings on this forum somewhere that I came across when I was researching meta gem choices myself. The average PPM was tested by them to be 1 PPM. I don't run procwatch or anything like that to test it myself. The .36% crit and bonus damage on crit is nice, but I still prefer a haste buff. I think RED and TSD might be partially personal preference, but surely at high gear levels (post KZ gear) I'd stay away from the SSD, since it just has nothing about it that scales. I suppose the run speed might be nice to get out of spore quakes, out of pounding, away from Leo when he is whirlwinding etc, but I'd rather just be able to do more damage and leave my running away to my reaction time.
Has anyone else had victory rush light up on Naj'entus? It only happened this previous week, and both myself, and our MS warrior both had it light up for us.
But Vashj is an exception. The hardest T5 fights (Vashj and Kael) aren't as good for BF, but BF can still contribute a lot to them, and it shines on pretty much every T6 fight
...
Council is a multi target fight
Agreed, speaking from the perspective I'm assuming Mjollnir has BF will seem a bit lackluster (Vashj, Leo, Hydross, Voidreaver, Kael). I think that's where people are getting a bit hung up. Yes - I agree BF is _not_ the ideal spec for those fights at all, but there is _very_ little like this in Hyjal/BT.
Council is a multi target fight, however (at least the way we do it) all of the melee is attacking Gathios anyway.
Has anyone else had victory rush light up on Naj'entus? It only happened this previous week, and both myself, and our MS warrior both had it light up for us.
If you kill a pet or a player with the ice thing he casts on you, you can get a victory rush off of it.
I got MCed on our KT kill last night 4 or 5 times. During which, I killed a felguard, a rogue, and almost downed a couple others. Clothies make for big crits. I think it healthily contributed to me being a solid #2 on phase 4/5 damage. Killing the rogue and felguard both procced VR. Their pain feeds my dps and I'm ok with that.
10/10/07, 12:55 PM
