Were you on cube rotations for mag? From the previous screen shot it looks like you were up over 130+ dps from the 2 handed build of the previous week (The numbers are a little cut off, but it looks like it was 8XX dps, and this week's was 1036). Which is an improvement of at least 15% dps, but only an improvement of 5% actual damage...so your raid stepped it up a fair bit as well.
And no comment on the Karaththress fight....i have no experience with it.
Judging from the DPS listed at the top of SWStats you are right up there in terms of warrior DPS.
0/31/30 looks like an off tank build. If you are going that route, you may as well just go 5/43/13 or something similar to that. You gain Toughness and Defiance at the cost of Impale. A minor DPS loss for a decent tanking gain. Some people can't live without Last Stand, even as an off tank, so you could fiddle with points to get that as well if you really needed it. I was 5/43/13 until we stopped doing Karazhan and there was never any issues with being the second tank.
To further hit on Fury/Prot builds; I've used a few specs for OT'ing (until I can swap back to full dps); similar to what Graul posted above:
Basicly the differance in mine and Grauls is that I would assume he generally only tanked Karazhan. I am still Hybrid because I am usually confuddled into tanking Magtheridon adds, Hydross adds, etc. As he says above Toughness is great, in my opinion Shield Specalization is just a superiour talent to spend points on to open up Improved Shield Block. For a meager 2 extra points you can throw in Last Stand and Improved Shield Block which greatly increase your tanking viability.
If your going to be tanking a decent bit, I would suggest going with my above route, if only occasionally (or for say Karazhan) you should be fine with only 13 in Protection.
Last edited by Surion : 06/08/07 at 2:14 PM.
Reason: Clarifying from Apate's response
Graul, from the limited information provided, it seems that the damage of a 31/30 is pretty similar to a DW 17/44. I would assume the difference in dps due to T3 1hander vs gorehowl/mooncleaver?
I find on most fights I am capped by threat not damage, how much do you have to hold back as a 17/44? Or do you chain spam HS?
Really depends on the fight and what you have going for you. As a hybrid (2/44/15- see above post) I still put out great dps, falling short of our top Rogue, but easily upper middle of the pack (top 3-6 in 25mans).
As full 17/44/0 I will stay neck and neck with him every fight.
However our melee group as of late has been running heavy, we finally got an Enhancement Shaman who isn't worthless, and always have a Feral Druid and we all have very good gear for our content (No bosses in SSC down yet, everything else on farm for months due to guild issues).
If you keep up HS constantly you will become threat capped quick, no real way around it; especially if you are running WF. Just make sure you have Salv and watch KTM.
Something like Gruul there is no way I can go all out keeping my trinket and DeathWish on cooldown spamming HS. Magtheridon assuming I am not tanking, the tank can usually get a good enough leadup. Lately when I am running raids, I have been dropping an extra Prot Warrior in the MT's group for BattleShout or a Resto Shaman for his own Windfury to help threat generation, we have some pretty big aggro-whores aside from just myself!
Poor choice of wording; what I was going for was it is a better place to spend your points so that you can get Improved Shield Block; your right however the talent by itself isn't clearly better than Toughness.
I could live without Last Stand, I couldn't live without Improved Shield Block if I am going to tank any raid content!
Though as a Hybrid tank you most likely arn't rolling in the Prot Gear; so you could argue that the extra 5% block is better than the increase in Armor, I haven't done the math and am not very keen to!
Last edited by Surion : 06/08/07 at 2:12 PM.
Reason: Clarification
I find on most fights I am capped by threat not damage, how much do you have to hold back as a 17/44? Or do you chain spam HS?
On a fight like Tidewalker, I have to step out about halfway through the fight for a few Murloc packs if I want to do anything other than just stand there with attack off. On any other fight it's fine as long as BoS is kept up, and I only HS a boss (adds don't really matter nearly as much since they die so fast) if I am really far behind the tank in threat and the fight still has a ways to go. I also only ever HS as a rage dump and never ever as a primary source of damage. I don't know where Crazypie got that absurdly high number for hamstring threat, but I have never ever had a threat issue or pulled aggro while mashing hamstring, and I have with HS in the past, and it's easier to to land many more hamstring over the fight than HS due to rage. I also switch out my main hand for a King's Defender that has Mongoose on it at 21%.
I would assume the difference in dps due to T3 1hander vs gorehowl/mooncleaver?
That would be my guess. Previously I was using a Planar Edge + Fel Edged Battle Axe and did fine before the patch. After the patch everything got upgraded and my off hand suddenly became lackluster compared to before and the Gorehowl got a nice boost so I decided to run around with that to see how it did on raids. I hadn't really considered keeping that spec, but was primarily going to use it to grind Arena for a new off hand, and then when it actually did much better than expected I decided to just save the respec cost until later.
Were you on cube rotations for mag? From the previous screen shot it looks like you were up over 130+ dps from the 2 handed build of the previous week (The numbers are a little cut off, but it looks like it was 8XX dps, and this week's was 1036). Which is an improvement of at least 15% dps, but only an improvement of 5% actual damage...so your raid stepped it up a fair bit as well.
Not on cube rotations, but then it's better to have ranged on that simply because it's easier for a melee to get gibbed by an "unlucky" bounce into a cleave. And yeah, my DPS is noticeably higher on our last kill as well as the rest of the raid. Also, while this isn't the Shaman thread, Enhancement Shamans are fine on damage. Those in the shots I posted can do even more damage than what is shown, but they often stop to chain heal the group.
Does anyone have experience going with a hybrid Fury/Prot build? With a 0/31/30 build you lose some pretty hefty DPS talents like Precision, Imp Berserker Stance, Rampage, Impale, and Imp Overpower, but you are able to get 1H spec out of it to balance the loss somewhat. Although the extremely static nature of threat generation without Shield Slam and Devastate is extremely distasteful to me, there's no question that you're gaining some substantial tanking advantage over a 20/41/0 build or something of that nature, and presumbably bringing a little more to the raid as a result.
Deathwing (of dps warrior spreadsheet fame) proposed this 0/31/30 pre-tbc as a build that could approach 95% dps of full fury/arms because of the 1h spec boost. I ran this way for a few months. My anecdotal observations are that, assuming you are well geared for both roles, you can deliver top quartile dps, and an itemrack change later, tank just about anything pre-ssc. People tend to think you are prot by your mob control; it's pretty funny when they go look at the armory As your raid dps grows, the you can see the wall coming with TPS, as progression grows, you can see the wall coming with mitigation...with all that said, it was a lot of fun, and it has a stunning amount of utility.
Does anyone have experience going with a hybrid Fury/Prot build? With a 0/31/30 build you lose some pretty hefty DPS talents like Precision, Imp Berserker Stance, Rampage, Impale, and Imp Overpower, but you are able to get 1H spec out of it to balance the loss somewhat. Although the extremely static nature of threat generation without Shield Slam and Devastate is extremely distasteful to me, there's no question that you're gaining some substantial tanking advantage over a 20/41/0 build or something of that nature, and presumbably bringing a little more to the raid as a result.
Deathwing (of dps warrior spreadsheet fame) proposed this 0/31/30 pre-tbc as a build that could approach 95% dps of full fury/arms because of the 1h spec boost. I ran this way for a few months. My anecdotal observations are that, assuming you are well geared for both roles, you can deliver top quartile dps, and an itemrack change later, tank just about anything pre-ssc. People tend to think you are prot by your mob control; it's pretty funny when they go look at the armory As your raid dps grows, the you can see the wall coming with TPS, as progression grows, you can see the wall coming with mitigation...with all that said, it was a lot of fun, and it has a stunning amount of utility.
Does anyone have experience going with a hybrid Fury/Prot build? With a 0/31/30 build you lose some pretty hefty DPS talents like Precision, Imp Berserker Stance, Rampage, Impale, and Imp Overpower, but you are able to get 1H spec out of it to balance the loss somewhat. Although the extremely static nature of threat generation without Shield Slam and Devastate is extremely distasteful to me, there's no question that you're gaining some substantial tanking advantage over a 20/41/0 build or something of that nature, and presumbably bringing a little more to the raid as a result.
Deathwing (of dps warrior spreadsheet fame) proposed this 0/31/30 pre-tbc as a build that could approach 95% dps of full fury/arms because of the 1h spec boost. I ran this way for a few months. My anecdotal observations are that, assuming you are well geared for both roles, you can deliver top quartile dps, and an itemrack change later, tank just about anything pre-ssc. People tend to think you are prot by your mob control; it's pretty funny when they go look at the armory As your raid dps grows, the you can see the wall coming with TPS, as progression grows, you can see the wall coming with mitigation...with all that said, it was a lot of fun, and it has a stunning amount of utility.
I could live without Last Stand, I couldn't live without Improved Shield Block if I am going to tank any raid content!
Why? I don't remember being crushed by anything that required me in the "extra tank" role. Nothing aside from the bosses themselves is high enough.
"You are better than I am," Inigo admitted. "So it seems. But if that is true, then why are you smiling?"
"Because," Inigo answered, "I know something you don't know." "And what is that?" asked the man in black. "I'm not left-handed."
Why? I don't remember being crushed by anything that required me in the "extra tank" role. Nothing aside from the bosses themselves is high enough.
Off the top of my head - moroes/prince if you're running the 2nd kara group and the prot warrior went with group 1.
There's other stuff (channelers at mag), tidalvess, etc at various tiers. I think his point is that if you are spending a few points in prot presuming that you'll be tanking something meaningful, the extra block on shield block is worth more to him than the extra ac on toughness, particularly since you'll generally be more susceptible to spiking death than a full prot would be.
Obviously full prot takes both, I think his case is for the 14 or so points in prot builds, he'd rather have imp shield block than toughness, which is arguable. Depends on if you value the extra spike protection more than the reduced overall damage as an off-tank. Personally I like blue.
Deathwing (of dps warrior spreadsheet fame) proposed this 0/31/30 pre-tbc as a build that could approach 95% dps of full fury/arms because of the 1h spec boost. I ran this way for a few months. My anecdotal observations are that, assuming you are well geared for both roles, you can deliver top quartile dps, and an itemrack change later, tank just about anything pre-ssc. People tend to think you are prot by your mob control; it's pretty funny when they go look at the armory As your raid dps grows, the you can see the wall coming with TPS, as progression grows, you can see the wall coming with mitigation...with all that said, it was a lot of fun, and it has a stunning amount of utility.
I actually tried this for a few days now, and the lack of Focused Rage and Shield Slam (not so much Devastate) made 5-mans much more difficult. Free Revenges + Shield Slam are pretty huge in low rage scenarios (it was easy when I swapped into DPS gear, of course). But I imagine that in raid situations it would be fine.
Not sure of any "protection" build without 5/5 in Parry and even 3/3 in Imp TC these days.
Only one warrior in the raid needs TC, whether it be a dps warrior or an MT/OT so it's fine to skip it if you feel like maximizing mitigation talents.
And that being said, still waiting on my guild's enhancement shaman to return from vacation . No windfury + UR + SoE means no reason to even put up WWS's. Should be back Monday.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6WsB8dZcE
Raiding music that gets things done.
The best Theorycraft and Mathcraft happens after a raid and before the sun comes up.
And that being said, still waiting on my guild's enhancement shaman to return from vacation . No windfury + UR + SoE means no reason to even put up WWS's. Should be back Monday.
Think that's bad? After 2.1 both of our enhancement shaman re-specced resto because they were convinced they can't compete in terms of DPS. The one of them that had aspiration of returning to DPS was waiting for some good weapons to drop before switching back. (Was using reflex blades and Fel-edged battleaxe if I'm not mistaken). So our guild gets it's first ever decapitator drop...and this is in like 30+ kills over 3 raid groups here. It's won by a fury warrior member (non-raider) on his first KZ run (This fury warrior is in like 75% greens here...6th on DPS behind the prot tanks, etc). He was also out rolled by a hardcore resto-shaman. If i'd have been there, it would have been defaulted to the enhancement wannabe.....stupid guildies.
Anyways, back on topic.
On a fight like Tidewalker, I have to step out about halfway through the fight for a few Murloc packs if I want to do anything other than just stand there with attack off. On any other fight it's fine as long as BoS is kept up, and I only HS a boss (adds don't really matter nearly as much since they die so fast) if I am really far behind the tank in threat and the fight still has a ways to go. I also only ever HS as a rage dump and never ever as a primary source of damage.
I don't get it...it's almost mathematically impossible to pull threat off of a good main-tank if you have blessing of salvation.
I don't know if your threat meters are out of whack because you are whirl-winding multiple adds and it's not set to master target, or if you never have BoS, or your MT stinks....i don't get it. I never get anywhere near the MT in threat unless he's getting stunned/knocked back or there is a de-agro component to the fight.
BoS + innate berserk stance threat generation is 56% of normal (if im not mistaken). If your MT can maintain 900 TPS, you should need to maintain something like 2000+ dps in order to pull agro. Even factoring in heavy HS usage and an optimal 1100 average DPS, it shouldn't be possible.
Generally speaking, if the MT has had 10 seconds alone with the mob, i don't ever have to look at the threat meters.
I don't get it...it's almost mathematically impossible to pull threat off of a good main-tank if you have blessing of salvation.
Well, have you ever fought Tidewalker?
He puts an attack speed debuff on your MT that increases the time between his attacks by 400% (Tidal Wave) which makes it hard for him to sustain something like 900 TPS over the whole fight.
It's quite easy to pull aggro under these circumstances, even with BoS.
what sort of dps do you guys think would be possible with the best gear out atm? threat nonwithstanding
With an enhancement shaman, druid and hunter, 1500 EASILY. With the best gear out there, it's no problem sustaining nearly 1k dps w/ flask + food + stone and add in enhancement shaman (atleast a 300dps increase alone), LotP (another 50-70) and Trueshot + Hunter's Mark (50-70) you're lookin at some pretty insane numbers.
In regards to morogrim, you're tank is probably pretty good if he can keep up 700 TPS w/ a windfury totem. Our main tank blocks for about 600 so his Shield Slam really helps out his threat gen even though Tidal Wave destroys his white damage/heroic striking. It also helps that morogrim hits RIDICULOUSLY hard meaning rage is not the problem at all.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6WsB8dZcE
Raiding music that gets things done.
The best Theorycraft and Mathcraft happens after a raid and before the sun comes up.
- Full T6 level DPS gear with dual 100 dps weapons (If not the legendary sword off of illidan himself).
-Enhancement shaman; totems/UR
- Hunter; TS Aura, improved mark
- Druid ; Ilotp, FF on the mob
- Ret paladin in group; Sanct aura (2% more damage?), and imp crusader on the mob
- FULL buffs; flask or 2 elixirs, mark, fort, BS, rampage, food buff, world buffs, sharpening stone on off-hand, might, kings, salv
- Fully debuffed mob; sunder, FF, CoR, blood frenzy.
- Completely Immobile boss, able to attack from behind....preferably low armor to start off with.
That's single target of course....when we can get 2+ mobs close together cleave/whirlwind will raise that a bit.
I don't get it...it's almost mathematically impossible to pull threat off of a good main-tank if you have blessing of salvation.
I don't know if your threat meters are out of whack because you are whirl-winding multiple adds and it's not set to master target, or if you never have BoS, or your MT stinks....i don't get it. I never get anywhere near the MT in threat unless he's getting stunned/knocked back or there is a de-agro component to the fight.
BoS + innate berserk stance threat generation is 56% of normal (if im not mistaken). If your MT can maintain 900 TPS, you should need to maintain something like 2000+ dps in order to pull agro. Even factoring in heavy HS usage and an optimal 1100 average DPS, it shouldn't be possible.
Generally speaking, if the MT has had 10 seconds alone with the mob, i don't ever have to look at the threat meters.
Well I do have BoS, and I am constantly catching up. Our MT only seems to be able to do 550 TPS tops on this fight and refuses to grab devastate. He's still under the assumption that it has no place in tanking and that there is never time to use it between other abilities with the GCD.
I think it's interesting that max DPS in a stacked scenario is only 1500 when back pre-expansion a warrior put out 1550 DPS on patchwerk. Now a few things have changed. The two biggest ones are nerfs to pots/world buffs and rage generation. This warrior had ever pot and world buff there was. And along with the best warrior DPS gear in the game his rage bar was practically full all the time.
Well I do, and I am constantly catching up. Our MT only seems to be able to do 550 TPS tops on this fight and refuses to grab devastate.
I won't speak to the specifics of the fight, but some mathcraft instead.
Your DPS meter from Magtheridon of 1036 DPS for example. Lets go to the extreme of spamming HS the whole time and flurry up the whole time for max possible threat generation.
1036 DPS *0.56 (berserk stance + salvation threat reduction) = ~580 TPS
Heroic strike every 2.025 seconds at +196 threat per use, *.56 = 54.02 TPS
= 634 TPS.
Well, that's why you have an issue with your tank only doing 550 TPS on tidewalker, you are likely above that mark be a fair margin.
Any prot warrior worth ANYTHING should be able to destroy 640 TPS by at LEAST 20% on any standard fight. Combined with the fact that a fair portion of your damage comes late in the fight with a recklessness/deathwish/trinket/execute spam makes it even LESS likely you will pull agro early, barring some manner of 100% proc rate on WF for 20 seconds or something of course.
Is there something obvious I'm overlooking here? Is the threat bonus from berserk stance gone post-expansion? Doesn't stack with BoS like i think it does? KTM WAAAAY off?
On a side note Graul, any chance you used to play a Warlock on the Warsong server a ways back? i knew someone with your name, and i heard he re-rolled warrior elsewhere.
I remember pushing out 950~dps(Over the whole fight) on Patchwerk with only raidbuffs/minor consumables back in the days. To be honest it's the threat holding me back now, I'm not enjoying the role of a DPS warrior when I'm constantly capped by the threat on most encounters.
I'm pretty decked out from SSC/TK apart from weapons, and the position I'm in is _NOT FUN_(Sorry for caps, but I had to do it).
[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.
06/08/07, 11:35 AM
As your raid dps grows, the you can see the wall coming with TPS, as progression grows, you can see the wall coming with mitigation...with all that said, it was a lot of fun, and it has a stunning amount of utility.
. No windfury + UR + SoE means no reason to even put up WWS's. Should be back Monday.
