Quixotic

Yes, it is about a 10% increase when paired with bloodlust/heroism, bloodlust brooch, haste potions, and recklessness.

Whirlwind right now is only 4% of my dps, and the addition off offhand damage may push it up another 2% at max, because my offhand is fast.

However, with good enough gear (weapons + ap) it may begin to outscale execute like bloodthirst does currently, and will gain priority in execute range when you have enough rage. Bloodthirst > Whirlwind > Execute > HS.

No, not on most fights. If you get a good tank who knows proper rotations, tank aggro is going up as well, and currently I'm not threat capped on most fights in the game. Yes it will be nice on aggro resetting encounters, and fights that have multiple phases so I can start going all out earlier, but you can't make a blanket statement that more threat ceiling = more dps, when there are DPS warriors out there who aren't threat capped at 1900 dps on Teron.


Personally using rough napkin math, and the inability to transfer over, I'm going to say it's a nerf. Deathwish scaled with gear, and is better than sweeping strikes in every possible way for boss damage, and could possibly outscale it on add damage in certain conditions. I will reserve final judgement on whether or not the new weapon expertise will change dps for the better however, as looking over my last WWS, I have 10% damage lost from dodges, and the new weapon expertise could be a large increase in damage, while at the same time smoothing out rage generation.

I don't know about this one either, I am definitely going to test 21/40, rampage is a flat +250 ap, while deathwish is 20% damage for 30 seconds, and depending on fight length could be up as much as 25% of the time. The main loss would be precision, but that can be overcome by gear.

 

Darkrenown

Executer will be -840 armour for 15 secs:
Executioner - Spells - World of Warcraft
Thoughts on this vs mongoose?

 

Kiranat

It would really depend on the proc rate - judging from the numbers in this thread -840 armor is roughly a 7% DPS boost, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is about double what warriors get from Mongoose.

If all things are equal (i.e. same proc rate) I'd take Executioner over Mongoose.

 

Turpin

My initial theory craft is pointing toward 21/40 being superior. The DPS spreadsheet is showing 60-70 dps from rampage (assumes 100% uptime) and 50-60 dps increase from DW (assumes average usage). This scales differently depending on gear but Rampage does seem to be 10ish dps more in general. But as you imply. proper DW usage combined with increased DW uptime/dps because of timing it with other buffs, can increase dps from DW significantly. In addition, you have at least 37 additional rage per min and at least 1.7 more global cooldowns per minute free (these both assume perfect rampage timing). At the least, you can get more HSs in (which may make the threat change to imp zerk more important), never have to put off a BT/WW to rebuff Rampage, and use extra GCs for rebuffs and OT duties (BS, DS, TC) or stuff like zerk rage/hamstring. So there are alot of advantages to 21/40 with the only real drawback being it is more skill based and provides less consistent dps.

Also, because 2 hand fury has harder time with the extra GCs and timing needed for rampage, 21/40 would be a clear winner atm IMHO.

 

Turpin

Also executioner is guaranteed extra damage for the time period, while mongoose is just an increased extra chance for more damage (crit).

 

Hozz

The DW/SS really needs to not happen.

Its nothing but a Fury nerf, can that be their intention?

If they are going to move something out of Fury that is neither a buff nor a nerf to the 31/30 or 33/28 specs out there (like DW for SS), then how about pick something that is NOT a nerf to 17/44? Or even better, take something like Enrage which has zero business being in the PVE DPS tree. It does nothing but make Flurry cost 10 points instead of 5.

 

boysailor

I'm more curious about the reason (logic?) behind the change. Why the developers did this change, and more importantly how it will effect my game-play.

Personally, I'm done focusing on the nerfs (don't get me wrong, but this nerf/change, as every other will happen. There is no point spamming/focusing on how to stop it.). I'm more interested in how the nerfs/changes will influence our playing.

I am, for some odd reason, incredibly curious on how the reasoning and outcome of this change though.
Hm..

 

• Mjollnir

Perhaps the best setup will be dual Executioner enchants? Assuming there is no hidden cool down on the proc and 2 can be active as the current Mongoose allows.

 

Amorpheus

It should be correct to assume Executioner will work like any other enchant considering stacking, and probably also uptime. Mongoose and Crusader are equal PPM aren't they?

"You are better than I am," Inigo admitted.
"So it seems. But if that is true, then why are you smiling?"
"Because," Inigo answered, "I know something you don't know."
"And what is that?" asked the man in black.
"I'm not left-handed."

 

Hidden

The Executioner enchant should and probably will be quite a bit better than Mongoose for two reasons:
1. It drops in a higher instance, so with better loot the enchants should be better as well.
2. Warriors benefit 100% from it unlike from Mongoose. Armor Penetration is a much better stat than agility is for Warriors.

Based on calculations (around 7% more overall damage versus around 3% more crit and 2% more attack speed) and on logical thoughts, Executioner will be the enchant of choice for any Warrior, most certainly on the Off-hand as well.

Edit: I'm quite sure it will work just like the other "buff proc enchants" as well (1 PPM, Main- and Offhand proc stacking with eachother).

 

Bronwyn

Your initial theory craft sounds good initially, but you fail to mention the additional 3 talent points that I have to leave out of the fury tree. This seems to be precision, so you will lose an additional 3% to hit. There is nothing in the arms tree that seems worth buying - it's either imp. charge or stun/charm resist ...

I will test 21/40 though. Not having to buff rampage sounds tempting

 

Graul

I would actually *almost* be ok with DW switching places if they would unlink Enrange. Then I would have the extra points to dump into a talent that is almost as good as my now nerfed racial was.

Maybe, but the spreadsheet's initial guess on Executioner was showing Exec + Potency was the best combo.

 

Brissa

Of course it is possible to stop it.
If enough people scream loud enough they will change it.
It has been done before.

 

ArkamisImm

I'm running numbers on Executioner right now, and it's looking excellent for warriors, but even good for rogues, too. I'll post some numbers once I can make a thread.

Right now I'm doing calculations on a 5 point eviscerate and finding the POI for AP vs. armor pen. Since haste got nerfed I'm having a strong suspicion armor pen is gonna be the new hotness.

 

Emeraude

The crying and complaining is at an all time high about it.

However Fury Warriors are the minority spec. >_>

Prot > Arms > Fury.

 

Amorpheus

Has there been any statement to what they're trying to achieve by swapping SS and DW?

"You are better than I am," Inigo admitted.
"So it seems. But if that is true, then why are you smiling?"
"Because," Inigo answered, "I know something you don't know."
"And what is that?" asked the man in black.
"I'm not left-handed."

 

Emeraude

I wouldn't expect anything until after the weekend.....and even then I wouldn't expect anything.

But Monday/Tuesday would be the most likely of times to see a response. It's rare, but The CMs/Kalgan sometimes post on weekends, this time however it seems they're quiet, due to all the rampant crying obviously.

 

Turpin

Good point, i was thinking from more of a 2 hand fury perspective since 33/28 and various 2H Fury builds are all i have played as raid dps. Also, remember you will be getting weapon expertise in Fury but i guess this is really a pvp talent now. Although you might be able to get more hit from raid gear so perhaps loosing precision is not as bad. And yeah nothing for those extra 3 points in Arms. But for 2H Fury you can put them into 2H Weapon Spec. Combine this with not needing as much hit as DW and i think this will be the prime 2H Fury spec at least.

 

Bronwyn

Indeed, 2H Fury seems to shine - taking into account the rare occasions where you actually need sweeping strikes. From a DW point of view, 40 points seem not nearly enough.

There's something else - you seem to save rage when you don't buff rampage, yet, those 275 AP will of course convert into rage again, as they increase your white damage (probably worth more rage than what you get from death wish).

 

Amorpheus

An alternative to stopping the swap would be making sweeping strikes useful against single targets as well. Like Blade Flurry has a 20% haste component, they could add something that makes SS worth using over HS. Since they aim to make it dual-wield friendly perhaps reducing or even removing misses for the duration, that would work well and prevent miss streaks when it matters. It should have a noticable effect, be a better rage dump than HS, but not be OP for a 30sec cooldown.

Of course, that would mean a Fury warrior would have another skill to juggle around... finally incentive to make Rampage passive?

"You are better than I am," Inigo admitted.
"So it seems. But if that is true, then why are you smiling?"
"Because," Inigo answered, "I know something you don't know."
"And what is that?" asked the man in black.
"I'm not left-handed."

 

Turpin

Here is my take on it.
They are trying to make Fury DPS more consistent and a bit more easier to play. So they add dps to WW and take out dps from an on use burst ability in DW to counter it. They give us SS so we have an easier to use aoe like bladeflurry as a situational utility item. They put Weapon Mastery right above enrage for pvp builds but mostly its the fact that they remove imp intercept from Fury, nerfing pvp as fury because thats the best pvp talent we have.

Finally it is now possible to get both Endless Rage and Deathwish, which wasnt possible before. This should get more ppl to take ER either as 41/20/0 as a new arena spec or as 41/5/15 dps/offtank spec. And also the moving of deathwish may make 2H fury not as viable in the face of 33/28.

 

Turpin

another good point but not sure how much it will counter the rage saved. And now that i see it that spec would be good for 2H fury but 2H fury get no benefit from the WW buff so it might not be worth 2H fury anymore if we cant use that extra rage effectively like for more slams or such.

 

Randor

It's Blizz's way of breaking the "cookie cutter" builds. 17-41-3 seems like a viable raiding build, getting the 3 for extra threat for off-tanking. Deeper arms seems more viable for pvp/arena warriors with the changes. I still think it should be enrage not deathwish moved to the Arms tree but that would make the trees unbalanced as far as point allocation.

Sweeping strikes in zerker sounds nice and for farming, it will be. But SS is a very touchy thing to use in raids with all of the CC.

And weapon mastery is all right in Fury but why have the disarm proponent to it? I'm on the ptr and testing some builds out but it seems like Blizz had the right idea but was locked in by the ungainly talent blocks in the trees. But if anything, weapon mastery and tactical mastery should change places and remove the expertise from defiance. TM seems has been far less useful for tanks since TC was added to defensive stance.

I also think the change was in part to lower dps just enough to keep things as they are, balance-wise.

This is a computer-generated message and needs no signature.

 

Bronwyn

Well, what I don't understand is the inconsistency they create.

Imo:
Fury : Rage, Brutality, Berserking --> Deathwish
Arms: Proficiency with weapons, etc. --> Weapon Mastery

 

Darkrenown

Oh yes, since WW will hit with both weapons OH enchants should proc slightly more often too.