Brissa

I guess that if you only run 2 paladins and use kings and might over salvation then there will be a substantial dps increase, but we always try to bring 3 paladins.

 

ckaparos

What does everyone think about using the 2/2 weapon mastery talent instead of 2/2 improved execute talent.

Considering the cost of execute increases from 10 to 15 rage with out the 2/2 talent, so 5 rage more per execute spam, but you gain -4dodge passive. You can only use execute on the last 20% health on the target but the -4dodge will be utilised 100% of the time on the target. My question is will it increase our dps overall to use weapon mastery 2/2 over improved execute 2/2.

 

Bleck03

Imo, its better to do not dodge 4% of the hits 100% of the fight, (and it gives more rage), than have 5 less rage to use for the lasts 20%...

And, imo, in most fights it's more important to improve the DPS between 100% to 0 than just the lasts 20%... It will reduce the time required to go to the lasts 20%, and it's better for everyone !

 

Randor

OK, the 4% must have been a misprint. On the PTR, 2/2 Weapon Mastery reads as reducing chance to be dodged/parried by 1%.

This is a computer-generated message and needs no signature.

 

ckaparos

Thats what it says on the PTR at present however it has not been updated yet it should be soon. A Blue has confirmed on the US wow forums 100% that 2/2 weapon mastery will reduce the chance to dodge attacks by a flat -4%

Below is the link confirming this change.

WoW Forums -> Deathwish swap not the end of the world...

and here

WoW Forums -> Deathwish swap not the end of the world...

 

Bronwyn

This is wrong. 1 point of expertise converts to -0.25% dodge/parry. Thus, 2/2 weapon mastery will result in -1% dodge/parry.

This is still great, since your yellow damage will improve.
5% dodge = 1 out of 20 yellow attacks will be dodged.
4% dodge = 1 out of 25 yellow attacks will be dodged.

Getting 20 points in expertise will result in a 5% increase in yellow hits (not crits).

 

Bronwyn

I just compared whirlwind live/ptr.

I used BS as the only buff and the same gear. Mobs were Apexis Flayers in Blade's Edge.
OH-Weapon: Rising Tide

LIVE:
Average hit: 400, Average crit: 850

PTR:
Average hit: 680, Average crit: 1500

Depending on your crit chance, this will give you appr. 430 more damage per whirlwind (40% crit assumed).

If we assume optimal whirlwind usage and 1/2 imp. whirlwind, you will get an increase of 430/9 dps = +48 DPS or (2/2 imp. ww) 430/8 = +54 DPS.

How does that compare to the loss of DW?
DW (assuming you use it whenever it's ready, ignoring optimized usage with heroism or in execute range) will be up 1/6 of the time, thus increasing your dps by 3,33%.

1000 DPS ---> + 33 DPS
1500 DPS ---> + 50 DPS

So, according to my initial tests, you need 1500 DPS in every Deathwish phase to achieve a dps boost similar to the new whirlwind. Apparently, the change wasn't too bad, especially if you consider the following aspects:

Whirlwind has too yellow attacks --> more flurry uptime + improved proc chance
Whirlwind as yellow damage profits immensely from expertise
As soon as there is more than one mob to fight, the combination of ss + ww is extremely powerful

Even though I was very squeamish about loosing DW at first, it seems to be a buff in the end. Combined with the -10% threat it definitely is.

 

Emeraude

So I finally got on the PTR.

On the Whirlwind change: It seems that the attack hits with both weapons, separately, I just assumed it could combine the weapon damage of both of your weapons into 1 WW attack, like Rogue Mutilate, but in the combat log it registers an attack for each weapon, which is nice.

On the Mace Spec change: It's a pure PvP spec, but the nerf didn't seem very huge, from the phasing people have done it's -1% proc rate with slow weapons (3.5-3.8 Speed) and with the additional rage on the proc it kinda makes up for it.

On the Death Wish change: I miss it, did a little Zul'Aman testing, was saddened to see there was no Death Wish to pop, only Sweeping Strikes, which was kinda worthless because of the nature of Zul'Aman being a boss run instance. =/

On the Imp Zerker Stance change: had a Paladin salv me, so on top of that there was no way I could pull aggro, and I was going all out....all out as you can go without Death Wish. >_> Including Haste Pots, and Reckless Executes.

Overall I feel like my DPS has been nerfed, hoping the -4% dodge change will boast it, but right now I'm seriously considering a 33/28 build if it goes live as is, fairly sure 4% physical damage boast, in addition to everything the spec provides is better then this at the moment.

 

Bronwyn

Btw, in a raid environment, your whirlwind OH attack will of course benefit from raidbuffed attackpower and sharpening stones.

THE FOLLOWING IS PROJECTION ONLY:
If you aquire an additional 1400 AP from Raidbuffs, your whirlwind OH damage will go up 62.5 per non-crit and 137 per crit, resulting in a dps increase of roughly +10 DPS, definitely outweighing DW.

 

Gruntle

You need to take the extra rage generated by DW into account to get the correct damage boost. Using the dps spreadsheet i lose about 5% dps when I remove Deathwish from my talents. Updating the spreadsheet to add the OH damage to WW (not sure exactly how it will work, I just add the average OH hit to the WW damage) I get a total dps decrease of 2.8%.
Weapon expertise talent might make this go away, but I can't really find any talent points to put in it. The whirlwind calculation was done with a dagger as OH, with a slow OH the damage will be bigger (*sadface, I like my fast weapons, why force us even more into using slow...).

I'm not too worried about the changes, the whirlwind change might very well make up for losing DW. You will not be able to pop DW (due to missing rage, wanting to "save" DW for later or just being unfocused) at every single cd, making the buff worse.

edit: I'm fully buffed in the spreadsheet with about 2.7k AP, 35% crit and 16% hit (no haste, no -AP).

 

Bronwyn

I trust numbers that I calculate. Not necessarily the spreadsheet The extra rage that you generate is only relevant if you are ragestarved otherwise - also you will have to burn it with heroic strikes - which makes your threat cap relevant in turn. This however, has been raised do to new imp. bers. stance.

 

ckaparos

What part of what i said is wrong? The GM posted stating that weapon mastery will not have expertise in the talent! I know 1 poin of expertise converts to -0.25% dodge/parry but the point is weapon mastery wil not have expertise according to the blue post, he stated it will give flat out -4% chance to dodge when they update the PTR.

 

Bronwyn

It has expertise, i.e. 4 points of it (2 per talent point). 4 points will be 1% dodge reduce.

 

acx

There is a blue post that states the current build of PTR does not include the updated version of Weapon Mastery. The updated version of Weapon Mastery (to be on PTR in a future patch) is said to reduce target's dodge chance by 2%/4% instead of increasing weapon expertise by 2/4.

 

ckaparos

Again, Your telling me something I already know. Did you not read the Blue post before posting yourself saying it is wrong?

We know what it says now in PTR the point is the blue said it is going to be a flat out -4% dodge not expertise.

 

• Mjollnir

*sigh* The one thing you neglect, as many people do, is the portion of the fight that you aren't hitting anything. Steady DPS is important, but optimized DPS, when you are able to DPS, is more important still.
As you yourself have stated, ignoring optimized DW usage, the results yield such-and-such. But from a real world perspective, who doesn't optimize DW usage? I have a macro that pops troll zerk, DW, BL brooch, and haste pot simultaneously (this is usually timed about when the enh sham burns his Drums as well, but always timed so I get the full duration's benefit.). And then obviously I've got Recklessness to add to the mix for the 20% burn. I'd assume any fury warrior worth their salt has a similar or superior DW macro/usage. With the exception of the brooch, I can still pop all the same goodies and none benefits WW not in the slightest (Recklessness would make 2? WW's guaranteed crits).
The numbers I'm plugging into the spreadsheet coupled with the new changes yield very similar results as what I'm seeing now. When/if the SS/DW change goes live, it might very well be a L2P situation where styles must adjust to incorporate the changes, but I remain skeptical on the trade off we've received. It's like you've taken away the teddy bear I've gone to sleep with since birth, handed me a rag doll, and are trying to convince me that the rag doll is just as good.

 

Mem

Don't forget that daggers are normalized for 1.7 instead of 2.4 for instant attacks. Which will widen the gap between a fast OH dagger and a slow non dagger OH.

 

Gruntle

Yeah totally correct. Offhand daggers will not be good at all after 2.3.

Btw, the calculations I made of WW damage was completely wrong (didn't include normalized AP damage from OH). With a 1.8 sec dagger you will lose less than 1% dps with the DW+WW change combined (assuming DW to be up 1/6 of the time but without any stacking of effects). Changing my Emerald ripper OH to Spiteblade (2.7 sec) results in a net dps increase.

It's almost impossible to model Deathwish as anything else than "up for 1/6 of the time". It may be possible that modeling it in this way gives less damage than reality due to the stacking effect of different buffs, but there is no way to know short of checking combat logs. However, if you wait to trigger DW until you have other buffs ready you're also losing dps due to not using it 1/6 of the time.

 

• Mjollnir

I'm pretty much done talking about DW until I get a raw Lurker log and PTR comparisons, however, think about what you wrote. This can be taken as encouraging bot-style play. One times abilities to do more dps.

 

Gruntle

What are you on about? "Bot style play"? Really don't understand what point you're trying to make here.

I'm only talking about how to model Deathwish. People are claiming anything between 1 to 20 % dps increase from Deathwish alone, there is no way to know until someone has actually checked the logs (good if you do that, would be interested in the results).

The way most people are modeling Deathwish is to assume that the talent point gives you a 20% damage increase 1/6th of the time, i.e. a 3.33% damage increase (in spreadsheets one can also include the effect of extra rage income -> more heroic strikes, which can yield a total dps increase of about 5% for Deathwish, depending on gear setup). What I meant was just that if you compare a standard model of Deathwish being up 1/6th of the time to a "model" where it's triggered at the same time as other buffs, you cannot assume that it's up the same amount of time.

I know that the effect of Deathwish will be a lot greater when you have other buffs active, but I'm not certain that it's worth "saving" Deathwish to these occasions. If you can time all the effects to be active at the same time without losing any waiting time you should of course do so. In some cases it's obviously easy to do it (e.g. <20% DW+Recklessness) and of course I do that.

 

Emeraude

I mean there are a lot of fights in the game that don't last more then 6 minutes, which only allows for 2 death wishes. On a fight like Solarian for instance, obviously if I pop death wish in the first 15 seconds of the fight in combination with heroism, I'm only going to have it up again to use for the last 20% of the fight, seeing the cool down up @ 43% and using it means I definitely won't have it for execute range.

It's those 7 minute+ fights that are tricky, because you kick yourself for not having DW up that 3rd time, or waiting because you overestimated your normal raid DPS. It just takes experience and a good understanding of the encounter, and your raid's normal DPS to maximize DW's potential.

 

Xoya

Actually, this is somewhat incorrect. Yellow attacks use a two-roll attack table, so the 20 points in expertise will actually give you a greater than 5% increase in yellow hits (damage-wise) because those hits can then be translated into crits. In addition, 20 points in expertise will also result in 5% increase in white hits, though I imagine you meant that for a given, but in case anyone saw just that line I felt I should add some clarification.

 

Bronwyn

Ok, I didn't know about the two-roll attack table ... is that a theory or a fact?

Also - do we have defintive info on how the "non-dodges" will be misses or hits?

 

Graul

Has this been confirmed to be the case on all yellow attacks, or just some specific Rogue abilities? This seems to be implying that 9% hit is not the cap for specials, which flies in the face of everything that's been said here. Unless you are suggesting it does a roll to see if you hit, crit or missed and then a check is done to see if it's dodged, parried or blocked...

 

Quixotic

Deathwish is far more than a 3.33% increase no matter how you look at it, even if you only get 2 deathwish in a 7 minute fight. The ability of an 'on demand' skill that you can time with other cooldowns far outweigh a small increase on whirlwind damage. Some of us warriors cannot choose to use a slow offhand, and from the numbers posted, whirlwind is still last in the rotation, so you still will clip seconds off it keeping bloodthirst on priority in real world situations.