I read into this a little while ago. There was proof that special attacks were two tables, as people would come up with results that were impossible under one table. I have yet to see any explaination on the layout or implications of the table however.

Here is the thread
http://elitistjerks.com/f33/t9104-backstab_two_rolls/

So unless either debuffs like the one used to test work in a way we dont know, or its 2 tables. I suppose things may have changed but I havent seen any recent testing either. I would like to test it for a warrior but not sure how yet.

I'm opposed to the DW/SS swap. It doesn't make much sense to me. If you were to rate which spec does it's job the best I would rank warrior specs the following:

1. Arms For PVP. Arms warriors are the most centrally important to PVP. It's not even close.
2. Prot Warriors for Tanking. Prot warriors have fair competition for tanking these days but they bring certain unique abilities that make them prefered or required for certain encounters.
3. Fury warriors for PVE DPS. Fury warriors fair well but other than having a part time tank, fury warriors can be replaced with prot warriors BSing the rogues or another rogue. Our strength comes from offtanking trash well when needed (which rogues can't do) and DPSing well (which prot warriors don't do too well).

If you take from the Fury warriors and give to the Arms warriors, it makes no sense. PVP warriors have more skill points to play with so they are buffed for PVP further. Fury warriors are more or less stuck. They can go 2hand for DPS or see what they can squeeze out of the Fury tree knowing that they would likely serve the raid better with BF.

Currently the 17/44 build has no spare points. Any new skill in Fury requires losing another DPS skill. If the Fury tree picks up more skills but doesn't optimize any, you get to the point of dropping 14 points out of Arms to pick up 2-3 more points in Fury. Now you have 10 filler skill points.

Here is most of a post I wrote about the value of DW for raid DPS:

The correct use of cooldowns in the game is not simply to click it every time it's up and continue as usual. Lets say you have 1000 dps which follows roughly a 600 white/400 yellow split. WW is at best 5% of your total damage (50 dps).

Let's say you are fighting any of the first 3 Hyjal bosses. These are essentially the pinnacle of DW usage. They are fights that last about 3-4 minutes and allow for 2 uses of deathwish.
10-15 seconds into the fight with the tanking having gained aggro with their abilities, some hunter MD help, and some PoMs, you pop DW number one. During DW, you pop a haste pot. That's 25% increased attack speed. Now, most of the time, you have flurry up which is a base 25% haste. 25% more haste is in fact only an increase of 20% in number of attacks expected. Over the course of the fight you average 600 white dps. 20% more than this is 120 dps. However, the DW allows more offhand damage and increases HS spam which increases your dps further. I'm not going to quantify this. Instead, I am going to use the 25% (150dps) increase for the haste pot during it's 15 seconds. So now you have 750 base DPS for 15 seconds and 600 base dps for 15 seconds. That's 675 average DPS for 30 seconds. Apply DW and that's 810 DPS for 30 seconds. Egad, that's a 35% increase in DPS by stacking 2 buffs. Haste pot alone is only a 25% increase for half the time (12.5% averaged over 30 seconds). Deathwish has amplified the haste post so that 12.5+20 becomes 35! Not to mention, your yellow dps has gone from 400 to 480 dps. 1290 dps out of a 1000 dps player for 30 seconds. How is this black magic possible? Just thank Levitra I guess. If you don't understand that bit, don't both reading further.

That's just the first deathwish. We'll call that baby deathwish. Now comes the 19% real deathwish. Haste pot, bloodlust/heroism, reckless, deathwish. Grand daddy deathwish. This is Rambo with his M16 mowing people down in front of the helicopter. This is fun stuff. Now, you have 600 white DPS hasted by 30% for 30 seconds, 25% more for 15 seconds, everything crits for 15 seconds, and you have deathwish. 600 white dps becomes 780/930 (no haste pot, haste pot). During the haste pot, reckless takes you from 930 dps:
Say you hit 85% of that time with 24% glancings (.75 damage) and 35% crits (doubles) for expected weapon damage of 1.14 x base. Under reckless, all these go to 1.4 x base (your still miss and glance). That's a ratio of 1.4/1.14 = 1.228 or 930 dps x 1.228 = 1142.
Heck, lets toss deathwish on there: 1370 white DPS. So, 1370 white DPS for 15 seconds with deathwish (1142 without) with 936 unrecklessed/780 without deathwish the other 15 seconds.
Lets say you normally do 1000 yellow execute spam DPS. (say 2200 under reckless). So you add deathwish to the mix and you get 20% more rage for harder executes which hit 20% harder again. You get deathwish stacking on deathwish. The return on execute is not linear damage/rage but I'll assume it is for comparison. For 15 seconds, you have 936 DW DPS versus 780 without for a rage factor of 1.2. Execute spam goes from 1000 to 1200 because of extra rage. No add DW and execute goes to 1440. This is a high number but during execute spam do not think that DW adds less than 30% damage. During the second half, your 2200 goes to 3168. Total DPS without DW: 2561, with 3379 with.

So now you have 210 seconds of a boss fight where for 138 seconds you do 1000 dps. For 30 seconds you could have deathwish. For 42 seconds, you execute and for 30 of those seconds you could have deathwish.
Without deathwish: 264030 damage
With deathwish: 297270 damage

So in a fight like this Deathwish provides 10% + damage.

I'm not going to say my math is great. I wrote this as quickly as possible and did not pile up as many trinkets/procs as possible. You can make a case for it being closer or farther apart. Under no circumstance is 3% an appropriate approximation of deathwish increasing DPS. And if you think 1 offhand hit every 9 seconds is going to do 30k damage in a 3.5 minute fight, well I don't know what to tell you.

Let's assume that the proc happens 1 PPM.

That means no matter what your weapon speed is, as long as it is quicker than 1 swing/minute, you will always get 1 proc per minute.

It doesn't matter how many instants you use, given it 10 or 30, the proc will always be 1 proc per minute.

I don't believe that even makes sense. So if you believe if you sit and autoattack you will proc something once per minute and if you go all out with specials you will still be proccing once per minute? Does that mean there is a 60s timer between procs so you never get 2 procs in a minute and double procs are impossible?

No, that does seem incorrect then. From what I gather, procs are coded so that under autoattack they average X procs per minute. This is based on weapon speed. A 3 second weapon swings 20 times in a minute so a 1 ppm enchant converts to a 5% chance on hit. A 2 ppm would be 10%. A 1ppm on a 6 second weapon would be 10%. This mates up with getting double procs yet not devaluing an enchant on a slow weapon by having straight %based procs. This conversion, however, allows for additional moves above and beyond your autoattack to generate more procs. If you go out and test this, you will find that cycling instants has a fairly clear effect on the actual amount of procs you get. Some enchants wind up with hidden cooldowns to control the rate at which the PPM can be raised with faster casts. If it was controlled in the way in which you suggest, spell surge would not need a hidden cooldown on it.

This is absolutely not how PPM enchants work. The actual proc chance is determined based on your weapon speed so that with no outside influence it happens an average of once per minute, and any additional attacks that you might have will use this same proc chance.

Death Wish move, "explained":

- Bornakk

WoW Forums -> Why was Deathwish moved to Arms?

They need to unlink Enrage and Flurry. Enrage in the PVE DPS tree is a blackhole for talent points. If they should have moved anything, they should have moved this.

I agree. As 33/28 Enrage is much more important to me for PvP and much less important for PvE compared to deathwish

Or if their issue is MS warriors getting flurry (this formed the cornerstone of the TM move as I recall) they need to link it to Dual Wield spec instead of enrage.

Hey now, that would be a pretty sizable nerf. By all appearances this is Blizzard trying to find a way to make Endless Rage/Imp MS more attractive and not Blizzard trying to make arms specs worse in general

You are going to have to provide some substantial evidence here as this is a statement that goes straight against all known fact.

Question:

If weapon mastery gets changed to -4% dodge, is impale still worth it or would a heavy fury spec with imp execute, weapon mastery and imp WW provide more single target dps?

No, it's what I said. For your way to be correct one of the following would have to be true:

1. There's internal cooldown on enchant procs. We know this isn't true as they can refresh themselves.

or

2. Instants can't proc enchants. Known to be false since you can easily see procs happening at the same time as an instant some time after an auto attack witha slow weapon.

Is it really making it that attractive to anyone? What has changed with Imp MS and ER that I have missed? What new benefits has it picked up? If they wanted to accomplish that, they would have fixed 33+ in the Arms tree. If anything they are not trying to fix a problem, they are just trying to force you out of the best PvP cookie cutter. So in essence they are eliminating what they consider a problem with the class by introducing a few more. I've never understood the backwards logic they have with fixing our class.

And as you said, the real reason warriors go mid fury for PvP is Enrage. Deathwish is good in PvP but I could live without that but not Enrage. In PvE it would be just the opposite.

This change is by far the most odd I've seen from Bliz since my first patch of 1.2. We've asked for Enrage to be moved to Arms for the last few years and never once did anyone ask for a change to SS or DW.

Add this to your question: would it also be worthwile to pick up defiance (13 points into prot) as well to gain even more weapon expertise? Would there even be a good DPS build for the tradeoffs needed?

A lot of people are also treating fights as a static thing. How many fights have built in design to be burst oriented? How many fights these days do you really hit the mob for an unchanging amount (no modifiers) from 100% down to 0% with nothing interrupting you?

We are moving further and further away from pure tank and spank, you don't have 100% dps time for an equivelent amount. Forget DPS alone, look at the nerf from the perspective of beating encounters also. How important do you find Deathwish to be when AoEing Kael weapons, executing trapped Illidan, burning down the last percentages of a boss with a health point enrage, or when you FINALLY get go all out on Bloodboil for those precious 30 seconds. Let alone the fights with DPS dead time because it's either kited or is immune or we're in a "cutscene'/transition" and what have you.

Encounters have a lot of 'dead' time that make DW more valuable than what modeling it would show you (stacking it with other cooldowns aside - and yes stacking is indeed obvious), a limited time increase coupled with another limited time increases, the few that say "it'd be the same if you use deathwish at 30% or use it at 19% with heroism/reck/haste pot" are completely out of it.

These are things a lot of posts don't take into account - burst damage like Deathwish being on demand while taking more damage is in large part of what Fury is about, same line of Recklessness.

On the net, we probably didn't lose over much or gain over much for most encounters when all the changes are tallied (if you were really threat capped, you gained, without a doubt), but this change really irks me for reasons beyond statistics. All for a talent that has been rehashed over and over, and most people still won't take. The sinister side of me just leads me to think they should transfer all the popular talents, protection included over to arms. If you have nothing else to take you may indeed take a talent you don't really need - that seems to be the logic here for a 41 point deep talent.

Expertise would really be a must is you consider its gear budget equivelent, improved whirlwind you would have to look into cycles first to see how much of a gain the second point really is, but I don't think it'd be that siginifcant.

What you mostly gain by not taking Impale is rather the points you free out of the arms tree for other things, for example TM you could say. Otherwise just take the points out of precisions, well geared fury has sickly high hit anyway and it is a cheap stat in the item budget. Impale is near a 4% DPS increase off the top of my head for the typical fury warrior.

I agree. Simply unlinking it, period, is a win/win. But do you really think that their motivation is to make ER/IMP MS more attractive in a PVE setting? The role delineation between the trees seems pretty strong already... So if the move is anticipating 51 arms talents, so be it. But if the pve dps tree is suffering from a back-asswards middle section because they don't want warriors using flurry in pvp, they need to change the talent associations.

I still don't get it. If Weapon Mastery adds -4% to dodge, then [Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx] and the 22 expertise should be legendary.


Has there been confirmation that this is indeed -4% dodge or could K have made a mistake?

The talent is being modified to remove 1% dodge per rank, not to grant enough expertise to do it. It will not have anything to do with expertise at all.

Approximately 4 rating = 1 point for expertise, those bracers are -1% dodge/parry, why would they be legendary?

Ah, ok. That makes more sense. Guess speccing into overpower and the T5 bonus will be all but useless now.

That said, I was in ZA last night and missed DW a little bit but I was surprised how I still generated a ton of threat. I guess I expected more but even with Salvation and Subtlety, I was pulling agro.