Don't you mean -2%/rank, or is it being changed to a 4 pointer?

I guessed they were changing it to 4 ranks based simply on how good it's going to be, but yeah, it's currently 2 points. If it's 2% per rank it's a simply incredible talent.

To swop with imp intercept, it would be need to be a 2-point talent.

A question regarding loots:
All the time using the Warrior DPS Spreadsheet I thought finally the Plate loot would be compareable to other armor's loot until today when we killed Kaz'Rogal and I saw [Valestalker Girdle] dropping. It's simply better than [Belt of Seething Fury]. After looking over it, it seemed like there were still many such items, mostly ones with haste rating which other classes don't really need sine the nerf. How far would you go? Wear a nearly full gear of Mail/Leather like in the old days where nothing else existed?

[Red Belt of Battle] seems better for a Fury warrior. Seething isn't bad for a MS warrior if the haste doesn't throw off the slam rotation. Though the upcoming heroic badge belt might be the best with its armor penetration.

Personally, I've never minded using mail or leather if it is a clear increase in stats as I'll have a tanking set and a dps srtamina (pvp/arena gear) when needed.

Meh, I don't buy that reason, if they are going to use that as reason for Arms warriors to get DW then I propose they unlink Enrage -> Flurry so we have 5 more points to flesh out the rest of the Fury tree with "must have" talents.

Much like my Arms brothers I feel forced into getting certain talents therefore I'm left with few options as to how to pick up Imp. Cleave or Weapon Expertise to go with my new Sweeping Strikes forced talent without ruining my cookie cutter build. :P

I'm just going to shoot from the hip here, but there are a lot of good ideas they could do with the Fury tree to free up points while keeping the tree as it is such as making Enrage a 1 point talent and tying the gains the other 4 points give into Flurry so they actually make sense together. This would free up 4 points that would still force us to make a style decision but at least we'd have options at this point.

They could move this new Enrage -> Flurry over to above Sweeping Strikes and make it part of the chain down to Bloodthirst and Rampage. Make Sweeping Strike a passive that has a chance on hit to hit an adjacent target.

Modify Bloodthirst to take away 30 health per successful swing making Rampage a passive that as the health lowers on a Fury warrior they gain an AP boost.

Again this is just shooting from the hip with a random quick thought, but it keeps the tree intact. It doesn't greatly modify the talents in such a way to make them any more powerful then they are now, but keeps the concept of a Fury warrior alive and well and there is some sort of logic to follow when looking at the tree.

Right, as I said I'm just shooting from the hip. My previous post is just random thoughts that would keep the Fury tree very similar but also add some new twist to it and a gameplay style that would reap benefits for those who knew how best to balance it.

Perhaps that wasn't the best shot but it goes towards my point of there are lots of little things Blizzard could do to modify the talents/trees to better fit a theme that talent trees have, then these seemingly random changes they are making now with poor reasoning behind the change.

That isn't to say that these are completely bad changes, but the statement that some warriors felt pigeon holed into getting certain talents leaving them with little choice is a rather weak statement, thats true of any class that is trying to maximize their specific function.

As it stands now with these swaps, Fury is left up shit creek because now we're the ones with limited choices as there are several talents in the fury tree that are accepted as "must haves" and we really don't have the points to spend to take advantage of these new talents, at least in the case of following cookie cutter builds.

It remains to be seen if these changes truly will make the difference that Blizzard seems to think they will.

Right, sorry about that.

Well, as things are (right) now. It seems like they (Blizzard) are.. hm, in lack of a better word, "experimenting" with the warrior talent tree.

I'm guessing (hoping?) that they'll do some other adjustments (based on what people have been suggesting) quite soon.

My assumption is also based on the quote from Bornakk (I think) mentioning they will do some other adjustments to certain classes. He also mentioned the mortal strike effect for hunters, as an example.

Only 1 of 2 things can happen past this point.

1) They move Death Wish back, and make no further changes.

2) They keep Death Wish as it is(Which I think they're going to do), and make changes to buff Fury DPS over the rest of the PTR to make us all feel better about it(Or future patches if they feel the removal of Death Wish dropped Warrior raid DPS too much).

Or we can all go conspiracy theory and talk about how they wanted to nerf Warrior DPS, or Kalgan is a PvP Warrior therefore doesn't care about PvE DPS, but that's straight off the Official Warrior boards isn't it. ^^

The Kalgan conspiracy theory is tempting, but I'd prefer to not clutter this proud topic with warrior forum posts of the week. :P

I foresee 2 being what will happen, I seriously doubt this change will be reverted. Sadly on some level I almost prefer this change, I wouldn't mind losing DW nearly as much if I could pick up the other talents in the Fury tree that I want.

S3 arena gear shown on mmo-champion.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...battlegear.jpg

Interestingly enough the S3 chestplace is better than Heart-shatterer and just short of Onslaught.

But thats something blizzard have always done. The tier sets have retarded sockets, while the PVP sets have good ones. However the fact neither the S3 legs or chestpiece needs personal rating means theyre very easy to get.

I also dont understand blizzards backward logic with the talent points. If anything its the fury DPS warriors who cant get everthing they want, arms cookie cutter was fine as it was. All they achieved by moving SS to fury was arms warriors no longer need to switch to battle stance to use it they still get deathwish and SS.

Arms warriors will still go into fury for enrage, flurry ect. If blizzard really want arms warriors to get the higher tiers of arms they need to do one simple thing. Get off there asses and improve the higher tier arms talents.

Totally agree, the so called "explanation" of the change is just complete BS. A very lazy explanation, should have been done a lot better. I think the changes will probably turn out to be a slight buff after all, but that explanation just irks me.

That's nice, it'll save me fighting with our rogues for the bloodsea brigand's chest anyway.

Edit: Rather than making a second post I'll just comment on the above two here:
Exactly. I raid as 33/28 and I'll still have the same talents in 2.3 and I can't see me changing unless BF moves to fury or something amazing is added to upper arms tiers.

Even if they do buff arms I suspect it would be a pvp buff rather than pve, although I could be wrong given arms still keeps BF. Perhaps now DW is in arms they could swap endless rage with something like "Unstopable deathwish: While deathwish is active you are immune to all CC/slowing effects"

Yeah I like the thing that they do arena gear almost equal to our t6 equipment. gr8 work blizzard keep it up..........

Yes, but in the past, the PvP gear and DPS gear both had crit rating and hit rating and str, and now the DPS set has agi instead of crit, and barely any hit. It just isn't itemized as well, so even though the S3 gear is itemized for "PvP" it has comparable (if not better) actual DPS stats.

T6 would have been perfect, and powerful, and superior to the arena sets if the agility was switched for crit/hit rating, but again, I'm preaching to the choir about Warrior itemization now aren't I?

Just case in point: [Krakken-Heart Breastplate] is 3 ilvls below [Heartshatter Breastplate] and it shows, Heartshatter has 2 more str, 3 more stamina, and the difference of 1 crit rating in place of the worthless agility.

And unlike what was discussed at Blizzcon, ZA is not the holy grail for fixing Fury itemization, as I'm sure you've all seen from the drops that have been shown so far, as well as the heroic badge plate DPS gear. It's saddening.

Indeed, the new fury sets have too much hit, no crit and nice high AP. Is it impossible for blizzard to make a balanced fury DPS set? T5 is quite nice, apart from the gloves I guess. Beaten by a gruul loot... very badly itemised, and the 2pc set bonus needs to be changed.

The thing that frustrates me is that after three years we are still fighting to have a decent fury set that is all Plate. Nearly every release of new gear sees gaping holes in itemization and often has us stealing gear from rogues or hunters. There doesn't seem to be an avenue to even get that frustration out. During TBC beta I submitted dozens of tickets due to the lack of dps plate upgrades along with stats in the wrong area (too much stam, use of agil instead of crit, etc). At the end of the day they just need to balance out crit, strength, hit and enough stam to keep us alive; then toss in some nice flavor stats here and there (-armor, haste, +bonus damage to xxx).

Hmmm. I'm thinking if they tweaked some things, the 2.3 review could be a buff for all warriors.

1. Reitemize T6 to have crit rating and some moderate hit instead of Agil.
2. Redo the T4/5 DPS set bonuses to be useful.
3. Do something to give DW fury warriors some flexibility and maybe a small DPS buff to make use of the aggro redux. Something like upping DW spec to match rogues (75% total oh damage) and Shaman flurry (30% like it used to be). Picking up weapon mastery almost compensates for the loss of DW (-4% dodge on BT, melee, execute if plain nice - probably a 3% increase in total DPS).
4. Along with 3, I'd like to be able to go 17/44 and get WE without giving up 2% hit or something. WE becomes a talent you want that you have to give up something else for. It would be nice to have a core build that had some slop in it for preference points.
5. There are too many dead abilities in the warrior trees. Booming voice, blood craze usually, imp cleave, imp rend, imp MS (usually), imp disciplines, endless rage. The reason PVP warriors spec into Fury was mostly because after you put 33 points in arms, there is just nothing else you want.

Whats really strange is how they claim to be itemizing S3 for pvp and T6 for pve when Agility, which is very prominent on T6 is clearly a better pvp stat since it offers both dodge, armor and crit. All the while S3 gets both hit, crit and armor pen.

They could make the vast majority of the burning community hate go away by doing two things.

1. Unlinking Enrage from Flurry, thus saving Fury warriors having to stick 5 points into a talent that does not help us in any meaningful way.

2. Swapping Improved Slam with Blood Frenzy. BF seems to fit the fury tree better thematically anyway, and it cements Fury as the PvE dps spec.

One effect of these changes that hasn't been much discussed is that the swap of DW and Improved Intercept means that nearly all the powerhouse PvP talents are now in Arms. So put the PvE raid damage buff talent in Fury. Blizzard should finish specializing our trees, and stop pretending that Fury being PvP viable is a goal of theirs. If I wanna arena, I'll just respec. It's not like I'm not swimming in gold.