ZA items have WAY too much +hit on them.
The PvP stuff is very good, especially those with sockets.

1) I dont think they are going to do this. Its a simple change but they havent done it yet, so I dont think they will.

2) The T6 set bonuses suck too. Compare ours to the Rogue T6...night and day.

3) The very first thing they need to do is unlink Enrage from Flurry. Enrage is a black hole for talent points and does nothing for PVE Fury except double the cost of Flurry. We can not even take advantage of the 'awesome' changes we got because they took away 1 talent point in Deathwish and added 4 more in Weapon Mastery and Imp WW (I know its not a new talent, but the base ability is much better making 2/2 compelling for the first time). Fun fact: 2/2 Weapon Mastery and 2/2 Imp WW probably do not add up to the DPS you lose from intelligent Deathwish usage.

4) See above.

5) Agree here, sort of. Every tree has some 'dead' talents. They really only need to get rid of the ones that know clear thinking person would ever take. Like Improved Rend, etc.

I am now of the opinion that they simply MUST do #1 above. I am going to make it my mission in WOW to get that change pushed through. There is no reason why our subpar Flurry should cost 10 talent points.

#2 would be AWESOME. I am hesitant to push for that though as it pretty much would negate the only reason to bring an Arms Warrior to a raid though.

As it stands now, you're about to be out of a job as fury, and are looking for a reason to attend a raid when you have an arms warrior you can take instead.
BB ran Vashj last night, on our kill attempt I had semi-optimal DW usage, having the group LW time his drums during the first DW, and drums catching the tail part of the execute spam DW (they were still on CD). I plan to parse this data to find out a more concrete, real world value of DW.

I don't think Blizzard would ever do this, simply because it involves a talent from another tree. Suppose someone wanted to be Fury/Prot? They would need to DPS in battle stance to keep Rend up for BF. As it is, Fury/Prot is gimped, but with the change to Defiance and TM, it seems the powers that be envision Warriors with at least a few points in Prot, regardless of their main tree.

I'm trying to think of other classes which have talents that require a talent from another tree to set a precedence for this, but I'm drawing a blank. Can anyone think of some?

Druid talents: Improved Faerie Fire (31-33 Balance).

"Your Faerie Fire spell increases the chance the target will be hit by melee and ranged attacks by 1/2/3%."

Although it appears they've changed the wording, this talent used to affect Feral Faerie Fire. (Yes, that would require a 33+/21+ build). I'm not sure if Feral FF is affected anymore, and I don't really think anyone cares. Most balance druids don't take this talent anyway, it cuts into their points for Sublety.

I'm curious to learn where you are drawing this 'conclusion' from? I have MTed every boss in SSC/TK with the exception of Kael, albeit we usually go with the full prots. Concerning dps (in my 3/41/17):
Wow Web Stats
The individuals who are dps are a purebred spec with gear that outclasses my Heroic/2 SSC item dps set.
And I can't count how many times I've heard 'ya but you'll need to spec either tanking or dps cause hybrids won't cut it when you get to the next level of content' ... Judge a spec on its merits, not on any bandwagon motto.

Any balance druid that doesnt take imp FF is a GIANT waste of a raid spot. Thats the main reason to bring one, I cant believe theyd try to say that any other 3pt spenditure adds more over all raid dps. If you are running with these players they are selflish and definatly not working for the team. In addition, giving the tank 3% hit helps a ton with the moonkins shitty threat.

@blood frenzy. Even if its in the fury tree, if you're going to take it you really need impale. You should have impale anyone imo.

Apologies for any offense. I personally used to be a fan of 0/46/15, but wasn't getting enough offtanking time to really justify the points spent in Prot. I switched to "cookie-cutter" 17/44, and only saw a nominal DPS increase (and I really miss last stand TBH). But when you're min/maxing, those couple extra DPS are what makes the difference.

Rend? There is never a need to swap stances to get rend on a target as a warriror. You will have enough crit to keep deep wounds up to help keep BF up. In a 25 man raid, Rend in any form is the biggest waste of a debuff slot.

I'm talking about switching BF to Fury. I'm pretty sure the only two wayt to keep BF up are through rend and Deep Wounds. I'm also pretty sure Deep Wounds isn't in Fury. Moving BF to Fury would then require 17 points in Arms, eliminating Fury/Prot...unless you wanted to switch stances and Rend (which, as you say, is a massive waste of a debuff slot).

Basically, BF to Fury won't happen unless they move Deep Wounds/Impale to Fury as well.

Rend would be completely worth a debuff spot and stance switch if it allowed a fury warrior to put up BF. You wouldn't need impale or deep wounds (which isn't 17 deep, by the way). It would be annoying and, in my opinion, stupid, but it's the same number of debuffs as Deep Wounds/BF.

IF one were going down that road: move enrage out of fury. Unlink impale and deep wounds, move deep wounds and BF to fury, linked. Let arms have impale and death wish.

i dunno bird, the mid-low end raiding itemization is kinda crappy but once you get into the high end(hyjal/bt) there is plenty of plate items that blow leather/mail out of the water for fury dps. dreadboots, heartshatter bp, illidari helm, archi legs, red belt of battle. a lot of those items are perfect for dw fury, but take a lot of effort to gather. so the itemization IS there, just not easily accessable.

True, those are good pieces. But Midnight Chestguard and Cursed Vision of Sargeras are the best in their respective slots, and they are both leather. The best bracers we can get are leather, Deadly Cuffs. The best belt, although Red Belt of Belt is superb for its ilevel, also leather.

Not to nit-pick or anything, but why in god's name don't they buff Rend? It's a little ridiculous that a priest racial(Star Shards), while crap, is going to be more powerful then a base Warrior ability next patch.

In a world where Corruption/Curse of Agony can take me down to 60% of my life in passing, I kinda wish Rend would do more meaningful and annoying damage over time. It would hardly be overpowered to do so.

I can't muster much sympathy for Arms at the moment. Let them have their dominance in PvP, their dead-certain spot on any serious arena team, and their face smashing. I have to spec Arms if I want to be anything but a joke in PvP, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that warriors have to spec for PvE in order to maximize their PvE performance.


As for moving Blood Frenzy, giving Fury Deep Wounds is probably too much to hope for, but honestly, I'd be totally fine with it with no other changes.

Fury/Protection warriors give up PvE damage in order to improve tanking ability. Maybe this would be one of those things they have to give up?

Im not sure I agree with that. STR>pure AP in raids, and even though agi scales with BOK I'd prefer pure crit rating over it. As it is the leather pieces arent years ahead of their plate respectives in terms of dps stats, but when you consider raid buffs I would definately prefer the plate pieces for pure STR.

Hi guys, been reading some time here, first post, so be gentle please

Yesterday while trying to fall asleep a thought occured to me. With the recent changes to the trees, especially Weapon Mastery, sword Spec might grow superior to poleaxe spec. Though it might be quite obvious why I come to this oppinion, let me elaborate

The reason I until now prefered poleaxe over sword was, beside "ZOMG MOAR CRIT IN TEH SHEET!" the reliability. An increase in critrate is always an increase in dps when it occurs (assuming you´re not critcapping ). However, sword specs extra attack had a chance to miss, be dodged or rarely be parried. Reaching the hitcap as a Slambuild is a no brainer, parrying isnt a real factor so basically your sword spec hit could hit, crit, glance or be dodged. Now we can almost eliminate the dodgefactor with some little weaponskill and most importantly Weapon Mastery.
I´m not too familiar with the hit tables, so i don´t know the effects crit and glancing have on each other, so I´ll just ignore glancings for the sake of my point.
Axe spec gives you 5% more crit, flat out. Sword Spec gives you basically 5% of an extra attack, which in terms of dmg comes out nearly the same with 1% chance to be dodged.But what if the sword spec crits? This would equal triple dmg on a sword spec, and if the hit causing it was a crit anyway quadruple dmg!

Maybe the effects arent as big as I hope it would be. Maybe one of you can shed some light on the point of glancings...

I have not been past Prince/Nightbane in TBC (I play pretty casually by standards here, and mainly pvp) so I'm gonna try not to go in over my head here. A few thoughts however;

Keep agility away from the pvp-armor please, it's worse for pvp than it is for pve. That said, I too would like to see straight ratings instead of agility on pve-gear.


As for BF/Deep Wounds/Rend, I've always looked at these as a "bleed-theme" that they seem bent on keeping in arms. I have no issues with them staying where they are as I am a supporter of keeping different specs viable for multiple roles, with a slight lead in their respective percieved areas of the game (pve fury - pvp arms), and I think BF is arms main ticket into this pve-part. Making Deep Wounds stack in some way would perhaps help keep it more in the "feel" of arms, cutting stuff up with big blades. As it is I really feel it overwrites itself too fast/often to be of much use damage-wise.

With the 2.3 changes to the trees however, as Mjollnir said, fury seems to be out of a job. Its gonna depend a lot on how good whirlwind hitting with the offhand will be in practice when people get used to it, along with the reworked Weapon Mastery I think.

Concerning Enrage/Flurry. Unlink them. As it is, it doesn't make any sense. I fully support this.
Contrary to what many feel though, I wouldn't want to see them just switch Enrage and Dual Weild-spec as it would do nothing for anyone wanting to use 2hand-fury.

Better streamlining and minor adjustments should be enough to keep fury where it is, i.e. not looking for a job.

We wont be looking for a job. Losing deathwish hurts, but the new weapon specialisation is very good, coupled with more passive threat and a better WW. Although needs a slow OH to take effect, the DPS loss is pretty minimal, on threat capped fights, its a boost.

The thing im more concerned with is blizzard's reason for moving deathwish is the first place. The official reason they gave simply didn't make sense. And why enrage is still in the PVE tree well..

I agree with your sentiments, and the items I mentioned are still better than their plate counterparts. [Midnight Chestguard]>[Onslaught Breastplate]. Strange which one of those has the AGI isnt it? [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] is just a freak and completely destroys our T6 hat and [Helm of the Illidari Shatterer].

Well the difference in DPS may be minimal but that does not tell the whole story. Assuming Deathwish is the same DPS as 2/2 Imp WW and 2/2 Weapon Mastery...you just spent 3 extra talent points to get the same DPS. That sucks.

Also, how many fights are you really threat capped on? In Hyjal and BT the only one I am *always* threat capped on is Bloodboil. Most of the others, I am never threat capped on...rarely I am on Gorefiend, and Essence of Anger will usually turn on me in the last 1-2% due to sick executes, but at point the fight is over.

What needs to happen is Enrage needs to be moved to Arms. Its a blackhole for talent points and serves no purpose in Fury except to double the cost of Flurry.

Eww, why would you compare midnight chestguard to onslaught? [Heartshatter Breastplate] is lightyears ahead of onslaught.

Because it's not, unless the DPS spreadsheet is way off. The order is Midnight > Onslaught > Arena 3 > Heartshatter.

I don't see how 1.2% crit means it completely destroys. It's better, but not by a large margin. It's definitely not big enough to feel any regret over picking up the Illidari. The spreadsheet shows that 1.2% crit being 15 DPS...although I don't see how.