Yeah I really have to scratch my head regarding the stated intent of the change.
If you were going to pick a tree that needed help...Arms would be last, I think. Warriors are a high-pop class but they (Arms spec) are over represented at every Arena level. Why would you do anything to make this spec better at the expense of another tree?
I love Arms, I respec once a week to get my welfare epics, but come on.
I am fine with this change long term as long as they realize that, because of the change, it takes us MORE talent points (17/44) to get the same DPS, and act accordingly. Unlink Enrage from Flurry.
But this is exactly what they have done now. They put all the necessary talents in the arms tree for PvP so that a PvP warrior can get all the skills he needs with 33 points, leaving the rest to get either sweeping strikes or go for last stand + concussion blow.
I'm totally confused by this change more than anything else, I don't know where they came up with it. No one had issues with arms warriors and fury warriors were ok (threat reduction we've been expecting for a while now) - now they've gimped fury and given arms anything and everything they could possibly want.
I'm hoping they'll revert this sweeping strikes - deathwish change. Most people don't realize how much this will screw us. Every single other class has a burst DPS ability (or more). Now we have trinkets, yay.
You can still get Deathwish with a 21/40 build, you just have to give up some goodies to get it.
I think what blizzard is trying to do is preventing people from going cookie cutter specs (33/28 17/44 35/23/3 etc etc) by swapping some talents around.
Arms warriors might be tempted to go deep in arms, or put some points in prot or points in fury, fury warriors can take the 41 pointer or put some more talents in arms to get Deathwish.
I think what blizzard is trying to do is preventing people from going cookie cutter specs (33/28 17/44 35/23/3 etc etc) by swapping some talents around.
Swapping talents around won't have any effect on this. The cookie cutter specs will still be there, just with a slightly different point distribution.
Not actually a member of Refusion on Burning Blade.
I'm hoping they'll revert this sweeping strikes - deathwish change. Most people don't realize how much this will screw us. Every single other class has a burst DPS ability (or more). Now we have trinkets, yay.
Apparently you know something we don't. How much will it screw us? I really doubt anyone has done any sort of extensive testing in 25 mans on the PTR, and the change to weapon mastery isn't even in yet which is a pretty big change.
Originally Posted by Eledorian
Arms warriors might be tempted to go deep in arms, or put some points in prot or points in fury, fury warriors can take the 41 pointer or put some more talents in arms to get Deathwish.
I don't think it will make more warriors go all the way down Arms. To get imp mortal strike and Endless rage you'd have to give up imp slam, weapon mastery, sweeping strikes and flurry which is just not worth it.
I really don't see why people are calling this an Arms buff either. Any warrior with a brain didn't go past 35 points in Arms and made sure they grabbed Deathwish. The talent swap changes pretty much nothing for pvp and is a minor nerf for pve because they took a desired pve talent (weapon mastery) and swapped it with an undesired talent (imp intercept). In 2.3 two filler talent points have to be taken in Arms to get to the 31 point level and a choice has to be made to drop either Imp Execute, Slam, and Weapon Mastery or dropping sweeping strikes to 1/2 one of them.
Last edited by mikebro : 10/18/07 at 10:17 AM.
Reason: added reply
Buffed SS? I'm not sure how 2H warriors are going to pull 10 hits per second out of their ass, but I'd be impressed.
Cleave still eats two charges on the PTR doesn't it? That's at least 6 charges in a 10 second window with some points in flurry/haste. Not including WW/MS. I think with mindful activation you could use the charges, just seems like a scary amount of burst threat.
Apparently you know something we don't. How much will it screw us? I really doubt anyone has done any sort of extensive testing in 25 mans on the PTR, and the change to weapon mastery isn't even in yet which is a pretty big change.
It's not about static DPS. If we were bashing on a static boss with no buffs but our own then yes, the DPS difference would probably compensate with the new whirlwind change and threat reduction. In a real life Deathwish is used during boss phases when it is weaker or when it is possible to DPS at all, coupled with other buffs, such as drums, haste potion, trinkets, heroism, recklessness. These amplify the effect of Deathwish. It's an on demand DPS increase, 2 minute cool down, 30 second duration 20% increase, how can you possibly think a hit with my offhand every 10 seconds or so will compensate?
the change to weapon mastery isn't even in yet which is a pretty big change.
Where are you planning on taking points from to put here?
Anyone know if they're touching the cooldown of Sweeping Strikes at all?
I think what blizzard is trying to do is preventing people from going cookie cutter specs (33/28 17/44 35/23/3 etc etc) by swapping some talents around.
If that was their intent they've failed. The only thing this changes is 17/44 warriors can't get deathwish anymore. 33/28 is exactly the same and 35/23/3 become better tanks.
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I think what blizzard is trying to do is preventing people from going cookie cutter specs (33/28 17/44 35/23/3 etc etc) by swapping some talents around.
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Forgive me for asking (& being ignorant), but what's wrong with "cookie cutter specs"?
The way I see it, those are the specs that were working, and "didn't need changes"?
I don't really think it has anything to do with breaking cookie cutter specs, and I don't think it's specifically meant to make the current 36+ arms more attractive. I think it's a future proofing for when the tree is 51 points deep.
It's been stated over and over, but the unlinking of enrage would help in so many ways the more I consider it.
With 5 more points you could get the 2/2 Weapon Expertise, and then decide between maxing Imp WW. or going 3/3 in something like Tactical mastery which would be a tanking buff (I haven't seen any metric on the threat increase.) and might make that terrible 2/4 tier 5 set bonus less shithouse.
Arms warriors might be tempted to go deep in arms, or put some points in prot or points in fury, fury warriors can take the 41 pointer or put some more talents in arms to get Deathwish.
I'm not sure how everyone specs Fury but for my part, when I spec DW Fury I typically skip Improved Intercept in favour of Improved Execute. The swapping of Improved Intercept and Weapon Mastery means I need to find two points for it, yet there's no "filler" for me to take the points from - i'd have to give up Improved Execute, take two points out of DW spec, or some combination.
It brings up the greater question of 21/40. Setting aside Rampage for the moment, limiting Fury to 40 points is a fairly big hit to it. The question arises again, where do you cut points from to squeeze under a cap of 40? There are only a limited number of places those points can come from and nearly all of them are essential to DW Fury - places like Precision, Dual Wield Specialization, Improved Execute, Weapon Mastery, maybe a point from Commanding Presence. Unlinking Enrage from Flurry (or swapping DW spec with Flurry) would go a long way to streamlining Fury spec.
There is also the point of where do you *put* the points in Arms in such a way that they are beneficial to DW. 17 points are straightforward - progression towards Impale. But then you have three points that are basically filler.
Right now if you want to build a 21/40 Fury spec you might as well mash it into 2h Fury. That way you can take the points you need from Precision and DW spec, and allocate them meaningfully into 2h spec over in Arms.
And as many others have noted, moving Death Wish over to Arms doesn't change the cookie cutter Arms spec at all. I'm very tempted to go back to it, especially given that i've lost my freebie 3% hit human cheese. Blood Frenzy in Arms is very enticing.
I'm not sure how everyone specs Fury but for my part, when I spec DW Fury I typically skip Improved Intercept in favour of Improved Execute. The swapping of Improved Intercept and Weapon Mastery means I need to find two points for it, yet there's no "filler" for me to take the points from - i'd have to give up Improved Execute, take two points out of DW spec, or some combination.
Yes even if we assume that the DPS loss from Deathwish going away is offset by the new or improved talents...we dont have the points to pick them all up.
So, if this is going to happen, Enrage needs to be unlinked from Flurry.
I think what blizzard is trying to do is preventing people from going cookie cutter specs (33/28 17/44 35/23/3 etc etc) by swapping some talents around.
I have no idea if that's the case or not but assuming it is for the sake of discussion it's just a pointless exercise on Blizzard's part. The vast majority of players in this game are inherently min-maxers. They will gravitate to the "single" best spec for thier role and by default make it the new cookie cutter spec.
Blizzard can only change what the cookie cutter specs are. They can't eliminate thier existence and if they actually believe they can then they are fools.
Well tbh we never have enough talent points to pick up everything we want. It's a about getting the talents that give you the most for your chosen playstyle.
Weapon mastery is going to give -2% dodge per talent point, making it better than Precision (1%hit per talent point) and very probably better than each point in Imp Execute (at least that's what playing with spreadsheets tell me). So you can put points in it while still getting a buff to your 17/44 build. You just have to give up some talent points placed in worse talents.
Weapon mastery is going to give -2% dodge per talent point, making it better than Precision (1%hit per talent point) and very probably better than each point in Imp Execute (at least that's what playing with spreadsheets tell me). So you can put points in it while still getting a buff to your 17/44 build. You just have to give up some talent points placed in worse talents.
On that note, once Defiance is actually granting Expertise on the PTR I would be curious to see if a spec like 3/45/13 is worthwhile - stacking Expertise on top of Weapon Mastery. I suspect giving up Impale won't be worth it, though.
On that note, once Defiance is actually granting Expertise on the PTR I would be curious to see if a spec like 3/45/13 is worthwhile - stacking Expertise on top of Weapon Mastery. I suspect giving up Impale won't be worth it, though.
It's been stated in the PTR thread that the Expertise granted by Defiance is only active in Defensive stance. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but it would seem somewhat silly to discourage taking Defiance for cross-speccing.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
It's been stated in the PTR thread that the Expertise granted by Defiance is only active in Defensive stance. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but it would seem somewhat silly to discourage taking Defiance for cross-speccing.
Yeah, that would be extremely dumb. If you're looking for a PvE tanking talent Defiance is a fantastic talent without the expertise; if the bonus only shows up in defensive stance then it makes the talent even stronger than it already was in that specific niche and benefits no other role.
I don't really think it has anything to do with breaking cookie cutter specs, and I don't think it's specifically meant to make the current 36+ arms more attractive. I think it's a future proofing for when the tree is 51 points deep.
I'm still convinced that the motivation behind the change is getting more people to spec full arms. I can't think of any other talent tree where nobody would ever spec 41 points, besides survival maybe, that is a pretty big issue for the designers. All 41 point talents are made to be viable, if one is not they will try and fix it. It's not a coincidence that both Circle of Healing and Pain Suppression were tweaked in this patch as well.
I'm still convinced that the motivation behind the change is getting more people to spec full arms.
It's just not going to happen until Improve Slam goes somewhere else. The problem is it's not an arms ability (though obviously they just violated that rule) so it doesn't really belong in the arms tree and if they were going to make that switch, I would have suspected that it would have been done instead of moving Improved Intercept. They can't really move it up in the tree because you don't get the ability until level 30 -- it's one of those rare cases where you can put a talent point in it before you attain the ability while leveling.
Also regarding Defiance: my guess is they were lazy and made the expertise a part of the Defiance aura instead of adding it as its own buff.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
Most people don't realize how much this will screw us. Every single other class has a burst DPS ability (or more). Now we have trinkets, yay.
Even then you're likely locked into at least 1, possibly 2 trinkets. I can't imagine a scenario where even the new 90/360 AP trinket will be worth swapping out my DST or Sapphire. It leaves us with consumables like haste pots and fel strength pots as the only reasonable alternative.
I'm interested in the implications of this Deathwish - Sweeping Strikes switch for Fury specs.
Since Rampage does not scale with gear (only with ranks obtained by levels), at some point, even assuming 100% uptime on Rampage, would not Deathwish come out on top as being a superior choice for damage?
Also, the activation feature of Deathwish allows for more control and the ability to gain the benefit during a vulnerable phase in a boss.
Here is what I am coming up with (this might be totally whack; I am using ingame tooltips for these calculations).
250 AP bonus from Rampage = flat 17.8 dps over the course of the fight. Over a 3 minute fight, this will give +3,204 damage.
20% bonus from Deathwish = During 3 minutes of a fight, :30 will be at 120% damage, and the other 2:30 will be at 100% damage. Assuming 1k dps (for simplicity), :30 of Deathwish will give 1.2k x 30 = 36k damage, or a 6,000 damage increase.
Looks like the inflection point is well under 1k dps. Does this mean that Rampage is an obsolete talent now?
Factor in all the meaningless talents you would have to pickup in Arms to get it.
You actaully have to factor in all the good talents in fury you'd have to lose. Its just not worth it. I hopped on ptr and spent forever trying to spec(good thing gold is free), its really hard, and DW is impossible to pick up.
10/18/07, 9:37 AM
