Woah Nelly.. you mean to say that the new 5/5 Imp Zerk Stance:
- Increases AP in zerk stance by 2/4/6/8/10%
- Decreases threat gen in zerk stance by 2/4/6/8/10%
- Decreases dmg taken in zerk stance by 2/4/6/8/10% (effectively giving zerk stance 3% additional crit, with no inc dmg penalty)?
You don't need to break arms to fix fury; tying flurry to DW spec wouldn't make arms warriors "consider points in fury more," it'd be a straight nerf
Why would it be a nerf?
At present you spent 5 points in an useless Talent (speaking of Boss fights), and with the linking of DW spec. to Flurry you would do either.
It would be a DW buff, but not an MS Nerf.
Why would it be a nerf?
At present you spent 5 points in an useless Talent (speaking of Boss fights), and with the linking of DW spec. to Flurry you would do either.
It would be a DW buff, but not an MS Nerf.
It would actually be a nerf to me, right now I am logged off in my pve gear with 228 resilience. That means 5.78% of any damage I take has a chance of proccing enrage. Things as silly as campfires or torches can proc it. It isn't useless, DW spec is useless. It's not too big of a change for pve, but actually quite a significant nerf to 33/28 pvp warriors and makes absolutely no sense for a perfectly viable 20/41 2H fury build. Swapping Enrage & DW Spec is a fury warrior pipe dream.
It would actually be a nerf to me, right now I am logged off in my pve gear with 228 resilience. That means 5.78% of any damage I take has a chance of proccing enrage. Things as silly as campfires or torches can proc it. It isn't useless, DW spec is useless. It's not too big of a change for pve, but actually quite a significant nerf to 33/28 pvp warriors and makes absolutely no sense for a perfectly viable 20/41 2H fury build. Swapping Enrage & DW Spec is a fury warrior pipe dream.
Oh yes it would be a real big change for PVE DW Furies. 5 more points to spent for Useful Talents is a big change.
And Enrage could be taken anyway. In that case you would lose the 3 points in Flurry.
It would actually be a nerf to me, right now I am logged off in my pve gear with 228 resilience. That means 5.78% of any damage I take has a chance of proccing enrage. Things as silly as campfires or torches can proc it. It isn't useless, DW spec is useless. It's not too big of a change for pve, but actually quite a significant nerf to 33/28 pvp warriors and makes absolutely no sense for a perfectly viable 20/41 2H fury build. Swapping Enrage & DW Spec is a fury warrior pipe dream.
I don't know if enrage proccing off the resilience mechanic on damage that can otherwise not crit (most AOE PVE damage) is an intended function. It would seem to me to violate the Blizzard agenda of PVE gear for PVE and PVP gear for PVP. Maybe it will be "fixed" in the future. As such, is it really valid to use it as justification for the value of enrage for PVE dps? Resilience mechanic aside, the only time I've made meaningful use of enrage in a raid is when I get stuck tanking in DPS gear (loose trash or a weaker mob I pull onto myself as a rage buddy to cleave dump into AOE type trash). However, for Fury PVP viability, it is fairly key. If you can't DPS someone down fast, you are more or less dead weight.
The more I look at it, it looks to me like Fury is basically treading water in the next patch. You lose deathwish. You pick up -4% (it better be 4%!!!) dodge, 62.5% more WW damage on single target at the expense of either 2 (or maybe 1) points of precision/imp execute. Trash and farming dps increases. Single target min/maxxed DPS probably takes a slight hit but has more aggro space. Meh.
The more I look at it, it looks to me like Fury is basically treading water in the next patch. You lose deathwish. You pick up -4% (it better be 4%!!!) dodge, 62.5% more WW damage on single target at the expense of either 2 (or maybe 1) points of precision/imp execute. Trash and farming dps increases. Single target min/maxxed DPS probably takes a slight hit but has more aggro space. Meh.
They really need to unlink Enrage from Flurry, and/or unlink Sweeping Strikes (or buff it ala Blade Flurry). Even if, on paper, there are enough new talents and game mechanic changes to offset the loss of Deathwish, it costs you talent points to get back to square one.
It seems to me the reason for the DW> SS change was to break up the cookie cutter build 33/28 and get more warriors to spec deep arms.
Your justification for enrage in the PVE tree mikebro, just doesn't make sense. For the majority of people who spec fury for PVE, enrage is just wasted space. Enrage is a PVP ability.
What blizzard should do is remove imp MS, and replace that with enrage. That accomplishes both making arms warriors spec deeper arms, while breaking up the cookie cutter build. This also has no negative effects on the PVE tree ( fury ) and allows us to spend some points in the nice new talents they have given us. without losing something in return.
Unlinking enrage and flurry wouldn't make more warriors spec deep arms or break up the cookie cutter build, which I think is blizzards intention with the changes. Wether they also intended to change the fury tree in the process, or maybe that was just a byproduct of the desire to make arms warriors spec deeper into arms.
The best solution is indeed, to unlink enrage but to also improve the higher tier arms talents to make them more appealing. And switch SS and DW back.
Unlinking enrage and flurry wouldn't make more warriors spec deep arms or break up the cookie cutter build, which I think is blizzards intention with the changes. Wether they also intended to change the fury tree in the process, or maybe that was just a byproduct of the desire to make arms warriors spec deeper into arms.
The best solution is indeed, to unlink enrage but to also improve the higher tier arms talents to make them more appealing. And switch SS and DW back.
Agree. If they want to make people go deeper Arms they need to make those talents past MS, better. And not nerf PVE Fury to do it.
It seems to me the reason for the DW> SS change was to break up the cookie cutter build 33/28 and get more warriors to spec deep arms.
Your justification for enrage in the PVE tree mikebro, just doesn't make sense. For the majority of people who spec fury for PVE, enrage is just wasted space. Enrage is a PVP ability.
What blizzard should do is remove imp MS, and replace that with enrage. That accomplishes both making arms warriors spec deeper arms, while breaking up the cookie cutter build. This also has no negative effects on the PVE tree ( fury ) and allows us to spend some points in the nice new talents they have given us. without losing something in return.
The pve tree? I don't think that is a fair classification considering every Warrior talent tree can play an extremely viable raiding roll except for deep Arms (41+), which isn't good for anything.
For at least the third time, I'm not saying that the middle tiers of the Fury tree are well layed out, I do think that there should/will be changes but I do think that swapping DW and Enrage like many people have suggested is nothing but a pipe dream unless the DW raiding situation gets really bad. I don't think Enrage is an incredible talent, I'm not even saying it's good, all I'm saying is that it's better than a 100% completely useless DW spec for both Arms and 2H Fury warriors.
Also, I don't know how many times it has to be said, but: No PVE Arms warrior is going to spec more than 33 points in to Arms until Slam, Weapon Mastery, and Flurry are moved in to those deeper positions in Arms or new ridiculously overpowered talents are released to replace Imp MS and Endless rage.
In regards to the changes they made to make the last few talents in Arms a bit more appealing, I don't really buy it. Unless they're just slowly taking it step by step addings stuff, their excuse for moving Deathwish to Arms was just a scapegoat. They're probably more worried about Fury warriors catching up to rogues in PVE with the new threat reduction. Weapon Mastery is amazing for PVP since everyone has at least ~5% dodge and it allows you to put +70AP or Executioner on your weapon, and Sweeping Strikes almost seems like a requisite for beating Warlock/XYZ 2v2 teams when I play with Druid/Warrior and the talents mentioned in the paragraph above are pretty much 100% required to remain competitive in PVE.
Last edited by mikebro : 10/23/07 at 2:08 PM.
Reason: last paragraph
It seems to me the reason for the DW> SS change was to break up the cookie cutter build 33/28 and get more warriors to spec deep arms.
This is what they think they're doing. In practice it won't work, 21+ in fury is still better than 34+ in arms. Flurry is just better.
The net effect of the changes is consolidation of Arms as the PvP tree, and a (probably slight) nerf to Fury in the removal of a signature Fury talent. Which irritates me. I hear warriors insisting that Arms should be even with Fury for raid dps. Why? Fury isn't even with Arms for arena. Hell, fury isn't good for arena at all, not to a serious team. Mortal Strike is just better, from what I've seen and read.
If blizzard wants to considate warrior talents into a PvP tree, a PvE damage tree, and a tanking tree, (which the changes to arms seems to indicate they do want to do) they should actually do that. Give fury Blood Frenzy. It would make the vast majority of the bitching go away.
This is what they think they're doing. In practice it won't work, 21+ in fury is still better than 34+ in arms. Flurry is just better.
The net effect of the changes is consolidation of Arms as the PvP tree, and a (probably slight) nerf to Fury in the removal of a signature Fury talent. Which irritates me. I hear warriors insisting that Arms should be even with Fury for raid dps. Why? Fury isn't even with Arms for arena.
Maybe it should be, but it wasn't as strong as 31/20 in pre-tbc (in my opinion anyhow. Though fury was far more viable than it is now) I'm not holding out for them to change anything, I'm not even really sure what they could do, besides pipe dream stuff like completely working rampage.
On a slightly different note I am considering the "future" of my DPS warrior right now. The change to Windfury totem enticed me to Fury; now the loss of Death Wish is drawing me back to Arms and Mortal Strike. So, I have a question to that effect.
I cannot recall precisely in which thread, but a long time ago somebody posted a "break even" point of Attack Power, whereby with X attack power, one would hit as hard with Bloodthirst as they do with Mortal Strike + Gorehowl. Obviously i've progressed beyond Gorehowl, and am looking to find what the "break even" AP point might be for Mortal Strike + Cataclysm's Edge, but I don't know the math of how to go about finding it. So my question is, at what amount of attack power would Bloodthirst hit harder than MS w/Cataclysm's Edge?
I ask mainly because I am tossing up, in my head, 21/40 versus 31/30. I may stay Fury but I find myself liking the playstyle a lot less these days.
AP*0.45 = [Cataclysm's Edge]'s Average Damage + 210 + AP/14*3.4
AP*0.45 - AP/14*3.4 = 693
AP (0.45 - .2428) = 693
AP = 3345
Edit: Even if you find that BT hits slightly harder than MS raid buffed, I think that Sword Spec > Imp Berserker Stance for damage. If you don't already have a BF warrior in your raid I definitely recommend going 33/28.
Arms is far far better then fury for arena/pvp. So much so that fury isn't even considered. This is mainly due to mortal strike, death wish, imp intercept and the fact that you can get all the good PvP and PvE fury talents necessary with the remaining 28-30 points.
Arms does less PvE damage then fury by a slight amount. Blood Frenzy makes the overall Arms DPS contribution greater then fury (in most cases....look back 10+ pages for the math that was done).
So...if you want to do well in arena...spec arms.
Want your raid to do more damage overall? Spec arms.
Want to do the most personal damage? Spec Fury.
Fury comes into it's own when there's another warrior putting Blood frenzy up...so we are the SECOND dps warrior.
Arms also has the advantage of being versatile....so you don't have to respec for PvP/PvE.
1 of 2 things needs to happen;
1. Fury needs PvP viability so that it matches arms...we won't have imp intercept, death wish, mortal strike next patch.
2. Fury needs to be the CLEAR PvE dps king to the point that speccing arms for PvE would be the same level of stupidity as speccing fury for PvP is now.
My suggestions; Blood frenzy to fury, unlink enrage and flurry. That makes Fury an excellent PvE dps tree while only removing a token amount of arms warriors PvP viability.
I have a feeling that we will see fury improvements in the future though, the fury tree is too....scattered ATM to remain as is.
Arms also has the advantage of being versatile....so you don't have to respec for PvP/PvE.
Oh yes you do, unless your idea of PvP is rolling PUGs for easy honor, in which case who cares what spec you are.
Trying to PvP as a 33/28 PvE warrior, missing Second Wind, Imp Hamstring, Imp Intercept, only 1 point in Imp Overpower... it's painful and frustrating. Plus the fact that I use Lionheart Executioner for PvE but also have a World Breaker lying around, not being able to take advantage of mace spec (broken or not) is also a killer.
Can it be pulled off? Yes, and better than Fury. But it's nowhere near optimal, and against good players you're going to lose because of the differences.
Quick Question for all the end gamer raiders out there. I have heard that some guilds use a soulstone on a warrior as an expensive way to drop threat. Does anyone here do that? Is it on encounters where the absolute highest dps must be met? Or is this just another myth found in other threads?
All in all it doesnt sound like a bad idea, for a few gold and loss of some buffs u get a clean slate of threat to nuke from, and u can selfbuff back up to a respectable level. I know its not ideal, but just curious to know if anyone utilizes this technique at all.
I was screwing around with WW/SS last night on the PTR, and I'm not sure exactly what it's doing. It definitely shows a hit for each weapon independently, and it seems like each can hit, crit, dodge, parry seperately, but I'm not sure if SS is considering each hit for a charge, or only uses both attacks together. Both hitting seperately means more chances to Flurry, but I don't know if I like the additional chances to dodge or parry.
Quick Question for all the end gamer raiders out there. I have heard that some guilds use a soulstone on a warrior as an expensive way to drop threat. Does anyone here do that? Is it on encounters where the absolute highest dps must be met? Or is this just another myth found in other threads?
Soul stones are the Warrior vanish. We used that sometimes, but usually they are saved for healers unless it's a really trivial fight. VR is the only one I can think of using it on right now.
Quick Question for all the end gamer raiders out there. I have heard that some guilds use a soulstone on a warrior as an expensive way to drop threat. Does anyone here do that? Is it on encounters where the absolute highest dps must be met? Or is this just another myth found in other threads?
All in all it doesnt sound like a bad idea, for a few gold and loss of some buffs u get a clean slate of threat to nuke from, and u can selfbuff back up to a respectable level. I know its not ideal, but just curious to know if anyone utilizes this technique at all.
Alot of people use it I'd guess.
Either bribe a lock for an SS or bribe a druid for a BR. It's handy on fights where you have threat issues (VR for example).
Quick Question for all the end gamer raiders out there. I have heard that some guilds use a soulstone on a warrior as an expensive way to drop threat. Does anyone here do that? Is it on encounters where the absolute highest dps must be met? Or is this just another myth found in other threads?
All in all it doesnt sound like a bad idea, for a few gold and loss of some buffs u get a clean slate of threat to nuke from, and u can selfbuff back up to a respectable level. I know its not ideal, but just curious to know if anyone utilizes this technique at all.
Pretty sure this is nothing more than a myth/people trying to brag in some odd way. I can't think of being threat capped or even near threat capped on any fight besides VR and maybe Bloodboil (haven't done it personally).
10/23/07, 7:35 AM
