Maybe it's because our maintank is a dodgefreak, but I'm constantly a slave under my TPS, he only does 400-550tps on most fights.
Ours was having issues breaking 550...and then he realized he forgot to train past rank 1 Shield Slam after his last respec. He also didn't ever use Devastate, but is trying to work that into his rotation now. If your tank is avoiding too much and rage starved, tell him to remove avoidance for more sta + block.
I've told him, but he's my classmaster AND guildmaster.
[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.
Has some interesting points, believe it or now. I especially like the comments from Schmity (sp?) of D&T.
He's also pretty bad at math, unless those 2 Rogues and 2 Hunters are pulling 1200 sustained DPS over the entire fight. It's similar to taking a lackluster DPS Warrior to raids to use Nightfall. If their DPS was already pretty bad on it's own, of course there is going to have to be something about them worth considering a raid slot for and in his case it's debuffing.
Before you go toting around the word scrub, I would suggest you take a second look at my guild's progression, progression I have been a part of as an MS warrior. Being MS was not a choice I made because I didn't want to spec out of my PvP spec, it was a suggestion made by a guildmate the realizes 4% damage for physical damage classes far outweighs my damage increase from being fury. Not only does the talent increase the damage from rogues, hunters, and feral druids, but it also increases tank threat, maybe not exactly by 4%, but definatly something close. This increase in threat allows all the dps in the raid to push a little harder.
Seeing as though it's DnT, they no doubt have some very high DPS players, but it would take an extreme amount of physical DPS before BF made up the difference between Arms (ie 2h build without Flurry) and DW Fury. And that's if Rend or Deep Wounds was up 100% of the time. I don't really agree with his logic completely. I mean, if it's all about non selfish specs and such, why ever even bring a Rogue? Before the patch, the biggest difference between a Rogue and Fury Warrior was threat and the Fury Warrior at least buffed the group. Now there is a small gap, yet the Fury Warrior still buffs the group and (so far) only on some fights is threat that much more of an issue for them than Rogues. If BF is really that good, then why not just go the extra step and use a Fury Warrior in place of one of your Rogues since it's "selflessly" buffing the entire group, while the Arms Warrior does what he thinks is the biggest net DPS gain?
Seeing as though it's DnT, they no doubt have some very high DPS players, but it would take an extreme amount of physical DPS before BF made up the difference between Arms (ie 2h build without Flurry) and DW Fury. And that's if Rend or Deep Wounds was up 100% of the time.
Does anyone really know this for sure? I'm going to assume the debuff is on all the time because I'm pretty sure the Arms warrior can get a crit every 12 seconds or so. It's not like our Rogues or DW Warriors are doing twice as much damage as our Arms Warrior.
Has anyone taken parsed WWS data, removed 4% of the physical damage done and added it on to the damage of an Arms warrior for comparison? I'm betting it's more than you give it credit for.
Well, if you've got 8 physical DPS classes, and you assume they do on average 30% more damage than you, then you're basically getting an increase of 0.04*1.3*8 = 41.6% effective increase in "your" DPS. So unless you can do 42% more damage as a Fury warrior, then you're a net benefit with Arms.
Now, if they do less than that amount of damage compared to you, then you get less overall benefit (relatively speaking), but of course, the marginal benefit from going Fury is being reduced also, so it should basically even out.
And it pretty much crosses the line into asshole-ishness if a raid leader chooses to exclude somebody over something like a 5% cumulative difference in your individual damage.
but it would take an extreme amount of physical DPS before BF made up the difference between Arms (ie 2h build without Flurry) and DW Fury. And that's if Rend or Deep Wounds was up 100% of the time.
Lets focus on this for a bit.
How much of a difference in DPS is there between say, 33/28, and 17/44? Assuming optimal specs/gear and positioning on a single-target fight? I personally don't think there would be more then a 20% difference in their damage.
Big loses;
Flurry, 10% attack speed
MS vs BT; After a certain amount of AP, BT is better. This value should be attainable in a raid buffed situation...unless you have a T3 blacksmithing weapons or other 125+ dps 2 hander.
10% AP off from the imp berserk stance talent.
So blood frenzy would have to make up 20% of a fury warrior's damage (give or take) to be better for the raid over all. So if you run with 5+ melee of the fury warrior's caliber, or better, or if you run with more then that, then bloody frenzy would likely come out better off.
For example, we ran 3 hunters, 3 rogues, 2 feral druids and 3 warriors on magthridon last night. Now, the warriors (myself included) did crap dps, with none in the top 10. 1 feral tanked magtheridon, and the other was on cubes and has bad DPS gear. But all told that's 11 people getting benefit from the buff. That HAS to make up the difference between lack-luster arms and good fury right there.
I'd imagine it's also EXCELLENT for a feral druid's agro compared to a prot warrior. A larger portion of their threat comes from white damage.
I can't open WWS parses and look at actual combat logs to calculate because they tell me that's a "poor use" of my time at work. I like where this theorycrafting is going but can anyone show a couple examples of fights with actual numbers and recalculate so we have some hard data? If no one else can I'll probably do it when I get home tonight but it will probably be a while.
I'll use graul's damage meters and raid composition, just because they are here.
Magtheridon
Graul; 644k damage, second on the meters. 7 that benefit from BF (8 if that shaman is enhancement...also assuming the druids are feral and not boomkin. Also, this doesn't include any people cut off the bottom of the meter, like a MT warrior if there was one)
3,183,000 physical damage done.
4% of that value is; 127,320 damage
127,320 is 19.77% of Graul's damage, which he maintained at 1036 DPS.
Theoretical break even point is 831 or great DPS with the 33/28 spec.
---------
Now, for the other fight. Karathress;
Graul did 574k damage @ 968 dps, second on the meters. 7 that benefit from BF (8, again, assuming the shaman is enhancement)
2,292,000 physical damage done.
4% is 91,680 damage
91,680 is ~16% of Graul's damage
Theoretical break even point here is 813 DPS with the BF build.
Mind you he does have everything popped before logging out, but I'm sure this is evidence that the theorycrafted 2h-fury dps build is indeed viable.
My question would be, in terms of Blacksmithing, which weapon would be better suited for PvE dps, Sword (Lionheart Series), Axe (Lunar/Moon/Bloodmoon)?
Mind you he does have everything popped before logging out, but I'm sure this is evidence that the theorycrafted 2h-fury dps build is indeed viable.
That's not evidence at all. It's like seeing a screen shot of a mage throwing down an 8000 damage pyro when he's flasked, trinkets popped, AP up and the berserking buff.
It's impressive...but doesn't prove anything.
Would he have done 153,208 more damage as Fury?
Not likely. He would have had to do 1122 DPS by my calculations. I'm not familiar with the fight, but that doesn't seem likely. That much dps would put him as the clear cut top physical DPS too.
Edit; Lets think about this for a minute. He'd need to improve his DPS by almost 41%
Assume a 2hander fury build as the "DPS" equivalent, as i dont know what his DW gear is like.
1. Your number assumes 100% BF uptime on what the physical DPS is targetting...isn't phase 2 split DPS? So some uptime is lost there.
2. Flurry = close to 25% more white damage, which is 50% of his overall damage (give or take). ~12.5% more damage.
3. Imp berserk stance = 10% more AP
4. Rampage = 275 more AP
5. Imp slam = big DPS increase.
6. Imp execute would be an increase in DPS too.
7. He'd lose an additional 5% crit and 5% overall damage as well.
It would be close i think, with arms likely being favored.
Last edited by Calgar : 06/13/07 at 3:57 PM.
Reason: ZOMG spelling and math corrections
Assume a 2hander fury build as the "DPS" equivalent, as i dont know what his DW gear is like.
1. Your number assumes 100% BF uptime on what the physical DPS is targetting...isn't phase 2 split DPS? So some uptime is lost there.
2. Flurry = close to 25% more white damage, which is 50% of his overall damage (give or take). ~12.5% more damage.
3. Imp berserk stance = 10% more AP
4. Rampage = 275 more AP
5. Imp slam = big DPS increase.
6. Imp execute would be an increase in DPS too.
7. He'd lose an additional 5% crit and 5% overall damage as well.
It would be close i think, with arms likely being favored.
Don't forget that with a 2h weapon, hit miss rate is much lower than that of dual weld. You should be able to make your miss chance relatively low in comparison, especially with the Precision Talent in the fury tree.
I believe the two hand miss rate is around 8.6% vs a 73 mob, with 3/3 in the precision talent you would only need 5.6% to reduce miss rates greatly, allowing yourself to concentrate more on critical and attack power gear.
Just wanted to rehijack my thread here in regard to someone talking about threat capping your dps. I'm willing to bet 8/10 "dw fury" warriors dps using Cleave since it's "more threat efficient" than Heroic Strike. Got some news for y'all:
Cleave = +70 damage (untalented) and +130 threat
Heroic Strike = +176 damage and +196 threat
Take a look at the damage to threat ratio here...
Cleave = 56 / 148.8 = 0.376
Heroic Strike = 140.8 / 269.44 = 0.523
Holy... so the majority of fury warriors running around out there spamming Cleave instead of Heroic Strike since it's "safer" are actually further threat capping themselves.
123 / 202.56 = 0.608 damage per threat.
So for three talent points (read: 3) you get a whopping 1 more damage for 13 threat going from Heroic Strike to Cleave. Total waste imo.
Tehax is MS spec, and has 35 in arms. Total physical dps done was 3,830,210
Would he have done 153,208 more damage as Fury?
Vashj isn't the best fight to judge melee on. First there are different amount of spawns in the different sections (I outdps the warrior who usually tops the meters by FAR in vashj p2) North has more spawns I believe, also if you get static charge you lose 20 seconds of dps and lastly you can get unlucky and get rooted out of meleerange.
If you're unlucky this can easily lose you 100k dmg or so total, and the rest may or may not be gear/skill/spec-differences.
And to add something to discuss - armor penetration? I picked the neck from BT trash up and replaced my heroic badge one. I'm pretty sure I made the right choice of taking this over supremus neck too, but how does armor penetration compare to haste with dualwield?
EJ's Vashj kill on sunday, heres the physical dps from the WWS thread
Tehax is MS spec, and has 35 in arms. Total physical dps done was 3,830,210
Would he have done 153,208 more damage as Fury?
Heh. That actually may not be the best guide to use there since Tehax is often switching specs so you can never really be sure what he was at that time. If you're gonna parse our stuff I suggest looking for fights involving Chocula.
Originally Posted by Voxx
Holy... so the majority of fury warriors running around out there spamming Cleave instead of Heroic Strike since it's "safer" are actually further threat capping themselves.
All I know is that I live through Void Reaver if I cleave, and that's pretty much the most aggro sensitive fight I deal with these days. Void Reaver is an espcially dangerous warrior fight because there is a limitless supply of rage gleaned from well-timed Berserker Rage usage.
All I know is that I live through Void Reaver if I cleave, and that's pretty much the most aggro sensitive fight I deal with these days. Void Reaver is an espcially dangerous warrior fight because there is a limitless supply of rage gleaned from well-timed Berserker Rage usage.
As someone stated earlier, that may just be because of how often you do it. Technically Heroic Strike will generate more damage for the threat it causes. However it causes it in larger spikes, so if you don't time it right you could burst over the tank. Assuming you don't overaggro while going dps-crazy, you should do more dps with Heroic Strike spam than Cleave. Also Cleave costs 20 rage meaning you'll do it ever so slightly less often.
Of course you'll do more damage with HS spam; it does more for less! We've been switching over to the Omen threat meter as of late and I don't know if that handles Void Reaver's thread reduction properly yet so I'm just basically playing it safe on that fight. When I know those meters are accurate I'll try to tune what I do to be at an appropriate threat level for the encounter.
Of course you'll do more damage with HS spam; it does more for less! We've been switching over to the Omen threat meter as of late and I don't know if that handles Void Reaver's thread reduction properly yet so I'm just basically playing it safe on that fight. When I know those meters are accurate I'll try to tune what I do to be at an appropriate threat level for the encounter.
What I meant was that you'll do more dps without capping yourself with threat if you use Heroic Strike and do it safely than if you use Cleave. Cleave might do less threat and feel safer, but that's because you're ultimately doing less damage as well.
I'm honestly not sure how anyone can truly "Heroic Strike Spam" and put out consistently high DPS unless they are using a pretty fast main hand. I am using a 2.7 speed main hander, and the only time I ever use HS is in conjunction with spamstring when both BT and WW are on cooldown, Rampage has a while to go and I have excessive rage. I have yet to be in a situation where my rage bar is full enough to simply hit HS every attack or every other attack. Sometimes near the end of a fight when I switch out my main hand for executes and the mob is not quite at 20% yet I can liberally HS, but usually not during the course of a fight. I also will continue to prioritize hamstring over HS if it is ever an issue of rage. I do not believe that the threat of hamstring is as high as someone stated, but I could be completely wrong. It's just that adding in hamstrings ups the proc rate of Flurry, Windfury, Rampage and Trinkets. HS does not.
I can use heroic strike mostly on every swing, 2.7 mh 2.6 oh. I raid alot without windfury since we bring 5 melee and group setup is shammy druid rogue rogue warr to get the most out of the group buffs, me and the other warrior take turns in being in the 'dps' group. But even with windfury I think heroic strike is much much better than spamstringing.
Where exactly are you getting this rage to Heroic on "most" swings, especially without Windfury? I have tried both using Heroic exclusively without hamstring and vise versa and using nothiung but Heroic cripples my DPS.
I'm curious as to what specs 2H raiding warriors are using to produce these kinds of results?
I've been testing out 31/30 (MS/flurry/impslam) and It seems like I'm mostly rage-starved the majority of the time, even when I'm in a group with a feral druid & resto shaman. We also usually have a survival hunter and another warrior with Blood Frenzy. Even then, the kind of damage I'm putting out isn't nearly what I've come to expect from a warrior. To get an ideal of my dilemna: I'm usually dead last on damage meters for the majority of boss fights I get to DPS on.
My rotation is WW/MS whenever they're up, and slam for rage dumps after white attacks. Like I said though, I'm usually rage-starved, so spamming slam is out of the question.
My gear is pretty good, ~1700 AP, bloodmoon, max hit, 39.5% crit before raid/party/self buffs.
Our raid DPS isn't horrible by any means (we killed Leo last night with 4 minutes to spare), so I've began to think maybe I've hit my limit as far as damage is concerned. Any ideas to what my failure point might be? I'd post some damage meters, but I've been so embarassed by them that I don't even bother to screenshot them.
Heh. That actually may not be the best guide to use there since Tehax is often switching specs so you can never really be sure what he was at that time. If you're gonna parse our stuff I suggest looking for fights involving Chocula.
He was 35 points in arms. As you can see by the second wind procs. I chose that parse because it was the latest physical heavy wws in that thread, what would be a better fight to look at? Solarian and her low armor? Something else with adds? That and there was 2 dps warriors there, so that made for a nice little comparison.
Last edited by Asmik : 06/14/07 at 9:37 AM.
Reason: grammar
06/13/07, 1:24 PM
