Brissa

A crit while flurry is up will only refresh the timer not add to it.
Compare the situation of going from 0-10% crit
This will increase flurry uptime substantially.

Now compare the situation where you are critting 90% of the hits you are actually landing and then increasing this value to 100% (Its still a 10% increase in crit) but since with 90% critrate you will already have flurry up almost all the time (because it refreshes the debuff before it expires) the extra 10% wont actually increase the time you are flurried.

 

• Mjollnir

Gotcha. This is hardly argumentative for the inverse either: stack as little crit as possible to make it worth more in terms of Flurry uptime.
Other than the obvious double damage a crit provides, what benefit is there? Rampage availability, and Flurry. So arguably yes, the point of stacking crit is Flurry.

 

Machinator

No, it is saying that the uptime gained per crit rating decreases as you gain crit. It is like an asymptote, you will approach but never reach. Once flurry is already up most of the time, which it will be in any decent gear, stacking crit in order to increase flurry uptime is ineffective. The primary gain from crit is doing more damage per swing.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Moogul

I did some simple maths about this the other day, and at around 50% crit, adding more crit has about half the effect on flurry uptime that it does at around 25% crit. Certainly less, but I wouldnt describe it as 'ineffective'. At around 50% crit, 1% more crit works out to just under 1% more flurry uptime I think (as in 1% of total time, not 1% current uptime, ie. from something like 84% uptime to 85% uptime), which isnt too shabby (in contrast, at around 25% crit adding 1% more crit is more on the order of 2% more flurry uptime).

Also, although flurry will generally be up 'most of the time', this most of the time generally works out to 70-80% (a bit more at higher levels of gear, and should go up once OH WW can proc it), not 90%+ like many assume. There is still significant gains to be made by increasing that.

------

Also, as an addendum, I'm thinking of making a flurry simulator (most likely a simple C program rather than a spreadsheet, as it's a little more complicated to model) and I could do with knowing a few things - firstly, do WF attacks consume flurry? I assume that they can proc it, but as a hit that generates rage, I don't know if they can consume a flurry charge or not. Also, is there a consistent view on what happens to the swing speed of your weapon when flurry runs out halfway through (normally due to a swing from the different weapon) - does it just carry on as if the weapon speed was normal, or if it was flurried, or does it 'flurry half the swing' and then leave the rest normal?

 

Naolin

so i've been going through many posts and many forums and i've heard some debate on the pro's con's over slow/fast OH. There are those that just swaer by it and say its absolutly dumb not to have a slow/slow weapon, and i've already read some pretty good explanations on how a slow OH isnt that much of a difference and why.
i'm currently using a slow/fast(syphon and swiftsteel bludgeon) i'm kinda convinced on trying to take the next axe of najentus that drops so i can try out the slow/slow

My question right now is should i just stick to my syphon MH bludgeon OH - or should i use my dragonstrike as a MH and spyhon as an OH so i have two slow weapon.... or is the difference minimal and the stats on the swiftsteel bludgeon worthy of just using that for now.

 

Brissa

Flurry simulators have been made by the enhancement shamans but results have been very inconclusive.
In fact it seems that we have no idea how flurry is implemented.

 

• Mjollnir

Moogul: could you post some of that math? The last math proof I read concerning Impale (17/44) being worth less than 1% of total dps assuming sub 40% crit was highly informative.

 

Moogul

I realise I made a slight error in my earlier maths, by counting 3 rather than 4 attacks (ie. ignoring instants). Here's the simple maths I did at work the other day - it's hard to be entirely accurate with flurry, since the more flurry you have the less instants per 3-hit cycle you have which complicates things.

Anyway, 2 slow weapons, and BT every 6 seconds and WW every 9, you're looking at around 1 instant for every 3 melee hits, which means that the formula for flurry uptime is (approximately) 1-((1-C)^4).

Putting in some sample crit rates (C) you get the following flurry uptimes:

Critrate ---- Flurry uptime
25% ---- 68.4%
30% ---- 76%
35% ---- 82.1%
40% ---- 87%
45% ---- 90.8%
50% ---- 93.8%

so, going from 25%->30% crit (an increase of 5%) gives around an 8% increase in flurry uptime
going from 45% to 50% (also an increase of 5)%, gives around a 3% increase in flurry uptime

This is only approximate though - in fact you'll normally have a bit less than 4 attacks per 3-melee hits (particularly if you use a fast offhand), which will reduce the difference more so that at higher levels of crit you will gain a bigger distance in flurry uptimes. Then again, if WF hits can proc flurry but not eat it, then you will have even more attacks per 3-melee swings.

I'll try to work on this flurry simulator over the next week or so and see if I can get some more accurate data.

 

• Mjollnir

This would be very nice to dis/prove. Going to test it right meow!

 

Moogul

Also, impale as only 1% of total damage seems a bit low?

Take a no impale situation. You have C% crit, and S% of your damage is from specials.

Of your specials, C% are crits, hitting for double damage. This means that 2*C/(1+C) of your special damage is from crits. Impale means you do 0.1*S*C/(1+C) S more damage. For most fury warriors, special damage is around 50% I think (probably higher at higher gear levels as you can HS more). Taking 40% crit, that makes a dps increase of:

0.1*0.5*0.4/1.4 = 0.0143 or 1.4% more damage from Impale. Hmm, less than I expected, but still more than 1%, and it will increase as your yellow damage increases. Just looked at a couple of Teron Gorefiend logs, one was an MS warrior with 70% special damage, another was a DW Fury with 60% special damage, both of which push impale up before you even count increased crit. Still, it's certainly interesting how little it is - I guess it's due to the fact that it's 20% of the critical strike bonus damage rather than 20% of the whole hit (or at least that's what I'm lead to believe).

 

• Mjollnir

Primary attack crits- procs Flurry
WF attack hits- consumes 1 charge.
2 ss's:
Pic 1
Pic 2

 

• Mjollnir

[Warrior] Impale Overrated?

Edit: 17/44 might see it's death come next patch, where Defiance grats expertise in all stances. Fury/Prot might very well be the highest dps spec out there. This is pure speculation.

 

Nite_Moogle

http://elitistjerks.com/569256-post5444.html

Just change out the number that it's raised to (^3) to something that approximates your total number of swings per 3 white hits. Short story is that past 30% crit the amount of flurry uptime contributed by the next 1% crit drops off a lot, so you don't see as drastic of gains from Crit as you do up until that point.

 

Excession

My WWS reports shows deep wounds as consistently 3% of my damage. I know it's a liability around CC, but for pure DPS output I don't see 6 expertise making up for that.

 

Zadus

Hello i have just made the switch from tanking to pve ms for the BF debuff.

We have just killed kael as of last nite and will be starting hyjal soon.

Ive been looking at peoples wws for 2h ms pve. Like modrack. I noticed he has a good deal of heroic strike damage in there.

My rotation and the rotation ive seen others talk about goes.... Auto - slam - ms | Auto - slam - ww | Repeat.

So my question is when and where does heroic strike fit in. The only logical way i could think it would come in is if you have a ton of rage and when your swing timer is about to reset you sub the auto attack for a heroic strike then slam then ms or ww?

Just trying to maximize my dps. Ive searched for the answer and have not found it. Thank you in advance.

 

Korlong

Kind of off-topic, but if you haven't seen this already, please head over to the Warrior class feedback threads, where Blizzard is (allegedly) collecting player feedback for WotLK:
America: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...280015&sid=1#0
Europe: WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Class Feedback Requested

At the very least, please complain about the Enrage->Flurry requirement. I have a hunch that volume counts in this case.

 

Grayson Carlyle

Exactly. I sub in HS when my rage is over 80, as that allows for a full cost HS + 1 slam + MS with 20 rage leftover to guarantee being able to hit slam before my auto attack and have enough rage for WW assuming my auto doesn't crit. This has more than once left me with ~27 rage, WW on cooldown and unable to hit MS though... Probably a bad practice to do it less than 85 rage.

 

Machinator

Quick spreadsheet numbers using my current gear(+wf, buffs, unleased, ect) Theoretical Max dps
EDIT: Wrong numbers
17/44: 1538.9 dps + deep wounds
3/44/14: 1520.4 dps

Realistically you might be looking at 5% less dps? That number doesnt feel quite right though.

More fiddling with talents with Imp execute got me thinking.
1. Execute is set damage, it doesnt scale with anything but crit, expertise, and Armor Pen.
2. Execute will use all your rage, which making using HS while using execute very hard.

I'm wondering what the point of inflection is where it is more dps to just not execute. BT already outscales execute at about T4/T5 level, when would the combination of WW and HS be more dps than execute for the rest of the GCDs?

"Information is ammunition."

 

• Mjollnir

Perhaps I overplayed the value of expertise. However, it's surprising to see how close the theoretical values come between the cookie cutter, and a hybrid OT build. Obviously, 6 expertise will make this gap smaller, not close it.
Deep wounds is also a little additional dps gain- the argument I was presenting was for Impale.

 

• Mjollnir

Not to beat a dead horse: just another thought I had away from game. Considering attack/crit-WF/hit results in 2 remaining charges- perhaps this strengthens the crit argument. WF and Flurry work against each other.

 

Zorac

Yes exactly, if you know you will have enough rage for a slam+ms/ww you throw in a hs.

 

Hraithmar

Hey all, first time poster here, long time reader. I need help as far as DPS'ing goes because I must be doing something wrong. Link to armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

On the DPS friendly fights, like Teron and Morogrim, I *BARELY* break over 1k sustained DPS. Before BC I was a DPS monster and totally crushed, but now it's like, I just can't perform like I used to. I have proper DPS rotations, I don't have much lag. Sadly I don't have any WWS logs right now because our raid leader stopped uploading, but I'll try to get some. Once I get some I'll link em. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks for reading.

 

Lambach

Man, I'd have to see a WWS. My fury warriors gear is a little worse then yours, and she rarely dips below 1400 dps on straight dps fights. Are you threat capped? Your gear is pretty perfect, too much hit, but you obviously arent socketing hit or anything, just comes on the gear. If you can get, even an old WWS just to check out, I really cant tell you whats up otherwise.

 

rayijin

I used the dps warrior spreadsheet and found that 44/17 was a small dps loss vs 17/44 (around 4% IIRC), factoring in the defiance bonus. This seems to line up with most theorycrafting here (deep wounds being ~3-4%, impale being 1-2%, and 6 expertise being a straight 1.5% increase).

Is 4% dps worth the survival advantage of last stand and tanking advantage of imp shield block and toughness/defiance? That's the question every warrior will have to make for himself.

 

Hraithmar

And I usually have an Enhance shammy in my group too. This week I should get some logs. I used Dragonstrike in my MH before Rising Tide. In my bank I also have Swiftsteel Bludgeon and Syphon of the Nathrezim. I'm working on getting 1850 rating for the axes, which should really help me with deepz.