Mists of Pandaria: All Specs - Page 21

HasteHunter · 09/29/12, 10:20 AM

According to SimCraft Arms deals highest dps but SC wasn`t update for a long time/ Does arms still deal a highest dps?

Tilhaa · 09/29/12, 11:58 AM

Thank you for your answer about mastery, dodge and parry.

I was also thinking about exp/hit as we can see a lot of 'em in the new raid gear.

We have a lot of miss / dodge / parade with Shield Slam and Revenge since we are not capped (wich means less SB and SBar uptime).
What do you guys think about those stats ? Should we forget about dodge and parry and get our exp/hit cap in order to make as many rage as possible ?

Morghie · 09/29/12, 4:44 PM

Definitely not. There is no point in copying and pasting so please go to Theck's analysis of warriors' mitigation.
We get so much rage from critical blocks to make mastery the definitive winner of all stat weights, with parry and dodge somewhat behind and hit/expertise close behind them. It's not that they are worthless - mastery is simply much much better While hit/expertise can smoothen damage intake, you reduce the damage intake during a whole fight more when focusing on mastery > parry/dodge.

Cthalupa · 09/29/12, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by Morghie

Definitely not. There is no point in copying and pasting so please go to Theck's analysis of warriors' mitigation.
We get so much rage from critical blocks to make mastery the definitive winner of all stat weights, with parry and dodge somewhat behind and hit/expertise close behind them. It's not that they are worthless - mastery is simply much much better While hit/expertise can smoothen damage intake, you reduce the damage intake during a whole fight more when focusing on mastery > parry/dodge.

Definitely not?

There's a couple of issues with that statement -

1) We have other sims showing hit/expertise to be equally important as mastery
2) Theck has acknowledged that he did not utilize less than 60 rage SBar, which results in the bursts he's seen. Using SBar more frequently with less rage reduces damage spikes about as well as SB
3) Your last statement is a bit backwards. Theck's entire argument based on his results was that SBar reduces total damage taken, but causes more spikes... Which isn't necessarily the case due to his methodology, but I've already gone over that.

That being said I've been playing the last few days with Expertise=Hit=Mastery>Parry=Dodge, and it does seem a bit spikier, but that's entirely anecdotal, and I'm still getting used to the active mitigation playstyle.

Right now there's just not enough information to give a definitive answer when we have two simulation models giving different conclusions.

Krennick · 10/04/12, 5:28 PM

The thing is, I don't really doubt that mastery is a superb stat. I mean who doesn't love getting rage without even having to burn a global cooldown for it. It's awesome - you crit block, you get rage. And with shield block up you block a lot and therefore crit block a lot. In fact when the new mechanics went live and ppl started talking about mastery being useless I was all "that's a bit premature" about it. Just because we couldn't CTC cap anymore doesn't mean that mastery is bad. And look (as said) we get all this passive rage. I stacked mastery for the last part of heroic dragon soul and I pretty much loved it. I also worried about the global cooldown - with too high dodge and parry rates I felt that revenge would reset almost too often.

The problem is, as I tank more and more with the new mechanics, I use shield barrier more and more and shield block a lot less. Or not at all. Because very few bosses actually do mainly physical blockable damage. And if it's not physical blockable damage then shield block does nothing and crit blocks do not occur. And if the physical blockable damage is only 50% of the dmg you take shield block is certainly not worth it. And I doubt it's ever more than 70%.

While it may be (but is not necessarily) true that shield block is better for damage smoothing and total damage reduction - when you prioritise shield block to the extent that you keep maximum possible uptime on it... I don't. And the thing is, if you don't keep up shield block 100% of the time possible - you're probably not using it at all. So I'm thinking right now that I need to reforge for maximum rage - and since shield block uptime is pretty much 0% that means my crit block rate is in the shitter and rage (and otherwise value) I get out of mastery is limited. And of course worrying about the global cooldown for revenge is silly - there are plenty of devastates going out which could be replaced with revenges.

So right now I'm thinking to hit at least the caps with hit (hard) and expertise (soft or maybe even hard?) and then find the right balance between parry and dodge to get maximum effect.

Also note and be wary. I've fooled myself. Don't make my mistake. I've occasionally seen a heroic drop with lower str but with higher secondaries and thought to myself that it must be intended for tanking so opted to use that over the higher strength lower secondaries piece. Don't do that. While I forget the exact ratios I did a quick test with some food and when it says str and a number - think of approx 95% of that number and call it parry. Changing 120 str to 100 secondaries is a LOSS of secondary tanking stats (as those 100 could be parry and 120 str is more accurately thought of as 114 parry)

plopinou · 10/08/12, 11:46 AM

I'am in the same position as Krennick.
I'm currently wondering if dropping mastery for exp/parry/dodge isn't the best choice because there is very few encounter where shield block is the optimal way to go.

- The stone guard : I successively off-tanked the bosses which get -90% damage received. ~70% of the damage income is a physical dot that cannot be parried/dodged/blocked.
-> Shield Block is completely useless, and so mastery too.

- Feng The Accursed : ~25% of the damage taken is melee based (~35% in 25), the other sources being arcane/lightning/fire damage only.
-> same thing, shield block is a waste of 60 rage, ruining the mana of your healers for a little more dps

- Gara'jal the Spiritbinder : a little more than 50% melee damage (60% in 25)
-> shield block is still far from shield barrier

- The Spirit Kings : ~90% of the incoming damage is melee based, and so blockable. This is the first fight where shield block can be usefull.
-> except that popping shield barrier as soon as the previous one has faded will still be less overall damage taken. The only real benefit here is that it will let you do more dps.

- Elegon : less than 50% melee damage (less than 60% in 25), also, there is 2 magic burst damage where you have to pop shield barrier with 60 rage : Celestial Breath and Total Annihilation.
-> again, I do not see any reason to use shield block instead of shield barrier

- Will of the emperor : probably the one and only encounter of this tier where shield block is better than shield barrier. Not because there is nearly 95% melee incoming damage, but because while you avoid their devastating arcs and stomps, you can stack rage and your shield block charges are coming back. So you can achieve a lot more than a 66% uptime with it when the boss starts melee you again.

So this is where I am, probably with a lot other warriors in the current tier.
We have a nice theorical shield block, that reveals itself as being a real burden on you healers if you use it instead of shield barrier.
In itself this is not a problem, even if it clearly indicates a major design flaw. No, what really clamp my heart is that by using shield barrier, I will gimp my rage generation, and also my dps.
I'am even wondering why we have a shield. If popping shield barrier constantly is better, why play a warrior ? A Death Knight is a lot better at it, and will also do more dps while healing himself.

So my conclusion is the same as Krennick's : stack a lot of stamina, use exclusively shield barrier, get hard hit cap and soft exp cap at least. I'm also wondering if seeking the hard exp cap could be better or not.

Will the true t14 tier (in 2 or 3 weeks) change things ? I highly doubt it, but who knows ? maybe all the encounters will have at least 80% of melee based damage on tanks ? /jokking off

Dots · 10/08/12, 8:32 PM

I'm not using Shield Block much either. Mostly just on Will of the Emperor, where it is very good, or if I don't have Vengeance yet, like at the start of an encounter. I would prefer Shield Block to be a real option, but right now it doesn't seem to be.
My gear is currently gemmed and reforged for hit and expertise hard caps to smooth out rage generation. I think that is definitely a valid option. Past that I am a little undecided, but dodge/parry is probably most effective. I don't think gemming for stamina is really necessary at the moment, so I'd rather go for secondary stats which have a higher budget on gems. Only doing 10 mans though, so this might be different for 25 and/or heroics.

Don't really agree with your Death Knight comment. At least from what I have seen, warriors do quite well compared to DKs.

Eetabeetay · 10/09/12, 12:34 AM

Something you have to remember about looking at logs is that you're looking at logs with shield block usage. I think shield barrier only usage can be useful on some encounters, but I think most encounters shield block is still stronger.

Stone Guard & Feng: I agree that Shield Barrier is probably stronger than Shield Block on these.

Gara'jal: On my guild's kill, ~60% of my incoming damage was melee. Here's the thing though: ~24% of my damage was from the Shadowy Attacks. Shadowy Attacks cannot be absorbed. Even though it is listed as shadow damage it can still be blocked. This means around 84% of my damage taken was from blockable damage. Shield Block > Shield Barrier on this one.

Spirit Kings: Shield Block is the obvious choice here.

Elegon: Mix up Shield Barrier and Shield Block usage on this fight. Total Annihilation and Breath are both predictable, so you can time up a shield barrier and/or major CD for those. The constant damage tick was only 13% of my damage taken and honestly could have been lower except I used it to help stack vengance for the Energy Charges.

Will of the Emperor: Another obvious Shield Block fight.

tldr: The bosses vary quite a bit, but majority do favor Shield Block usage.

speedyhealz · 10/09/12, 2:59 PM

So TG does more AoE, and SMF does more single target - can i make a macro to swap between TG and SMF for fights with frequent AoE that comes, or is there still a 30 second ICD before benefits from SMF will be activated?

Reaver18 · 10/10/12, 4:22 PM

hi,

no thats not possible to switch your weapons you haave an ICD from 30 secs so it did nothing change.

Voxxel · 10/12/12, 12:55 AM

Hey,

For a TG warr, I couldn't find out where to place the Hit above the 7.5% cap in the stat weight. Some sites places it behind Mastery others think its still more important than Mastery and Haste.

My other question is that Crit > Strength still? Or is it changed back in the LFR gear level? (for gemming)

xeek · 10/13/12, 5:31 PM

you just need 7,5% hit and Expertise, set the weight above cap to 0 if u use a reforge addon and reforge crit > mastery > haste

strength was never better than crit but since you have double the stats on secondary gems, it's better to gem crit

Red: Exp/Crit
Yellow: Crit
Blue: Hit/Crit

(you gem hit/exp > str because you can reforge more crit)

it's the same for smf and arms so you never need to regem or anything

Ixistillixi · 10/14/12, 12:51 PM

So many misinformations here. Is there any mod to delete useless posts?

Actualy crit IS better then str.

More for TG and SMF less for Arms but still it is better.

For example thats why I am using 463 ilvl boots over quest reward (from sha of anger) boots. 463ilvl have crit on them while epics have mastery/haste it will be dps loss if I equip epic ones even if they have more str. (Arms)

xeek · 10/14/12, 6:28 PM

sorry but what your saying is just not true. If you run simcraft and let it calculate your stat weights you will see that strength has a higher stat weight than crit... it's not that much of a difference but still saying 1 crit is better than 1 str is wrong.

when i run simcraft myself i get those weights (tg fury atm):

str 2,36
crit 1.95
mastery 1.01
haste 0.52
exp 2.9
hit 3.11

so str is a little bit better right? idk if simcraft is accurate or not but unless there aren't any other numbers you have to prove me otherwise.

then you compare sha haste/mastery quest boots with heroic crit expertise boots with a socket? who said that they were better because they have a little bit more strenght? I never said that haste/mastery with a little bit str will be better than boots with a shitload of crit and expertise, did i?
sorry but i recommend that you delete your own post.

if you still think your right you can send me a pm and show me your stat weight calculations (you must have another source than simcraft)

Fearnot · 10/14/12, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by xeek

sorry but what your saying is just not true. If you run simcraft and let it calculate your stat weights you will see that strength has a higher stat weight than crit... it's not that much of a difference but still saying 1 crit is better than 1 str is wrong.

when i run simcraft myself i get those weights (tg fury atm):

str 2,36
crit 1.95
mastery 1.01
haste 0.52
exp 2.9
hit 3.11

so str is a little bit better right? idk if simcraft is accurate or not but unless there aren't any other numbers you have to prove me otherwise.

these are what I get when I run simcraft. Varries a bit depending on gear, but the results are usually the same with crit > str