I don't like that Sudden Death only procs on OP. It seems to me like maximizing CS uptime would result in the highest DPS. So even during a CS window, you should be using OP a lot to try and reset the CS cooldown again, rather than using something else like Slam which does more damage. I'm not 100% sure though, maybe you could check with a simulation if OP is actually better than Slam during a CS window.
If that is the case, then I would like to see SD proc on more (or maybe all) special attacks with a lower proc rate. That way, Slam might be an option for when the CS debuff is up and you don't just always have the same MS > OP > OP > X.

Having attacks become too similar to each other has long been one of the design traps of Arms and something Blizzard highlighted when they removed Slam's cast time. It looks like they've ventured into that territory if you can swap around two primary attacks like this and produce so similar a result.

That aside, 1s OP looks better on paper than it plays out practically simply due to encounter design. When you have mixed GCDs in a rotation, you derive the benefit of the low-GCD attacks when you can string them together. Sure, the majority of the time this isn't an issue, but there are so many temporary fears, stuns, MCs, target swaps, target immunes/disappearances, etc. now that you're bound to get interrupted during a window where you were trying to squeeze in an extra attack. This isn't so much of an issue for something minor and non-strategic as BS-fueled Wild Strikes, but when it's a primary feature of a rotation? I don't know...

I agree with you that they need to aggressively look at scaling secondary stats. Arms has long-suffered from this issue and it seems to manifest in different ways tier after tier. But beyond this, I think they should also address how bland and uninteresting the rotation has become (this coming from somebody who used to look forward to every opportunity to switch to Arms outside of progression -- or during progression for the rare tier when it was the superior spec).

Sure, but how would it have been with the old 1.5 sec OP? Slam might be worse DPR than OP, but you would also cap rage because you rarely use Slam. In that case you have to use it on HS, which is vastly inferior DPR compared to Slam.

I don't really like the 1 sec OP change because it means you end up having some half second delays in the rotation. I'm pretty sure they got rid of those because they were awkward and I'm not looking forward to getting them back.

Regarding scaling, I agree that Fury crit scaling is just way too high and there are plenty ways to address that. At least they can easily adjust damage with the major patches, so that either spec won't fall too far behind.

But they could also just make it right in the beginning.
Even during MoP Beta we had proper sims that said Arms is going to be weak and would scale bad (also due to GCD capping) and would need severe fixing for T15 and beyond. Anyway, let's get away from those first world "problems" and see how things shape out on the PTR :-)

I do not think tying Sudden Death to Overpower(or for that matter, any special attack), is a good idea, simply because of the advantages of using CS more that it makes the triggering attack of the highest priority. If we tie it to Overpower, we simply spam that, and because of the 1s GCD it makes things really clunky. If we tie it to Slam, we would spam Slam but then end up in rage starvation.

I think I would be a lot happier if SD simply went back to autoattacks, or maybe some extra Opportunity Strikes as well. It would increase both Haste's and Mastery's scaling.

Reducing Overpower's GCD to 1s, is not a bad idea, however what this should do rather is to actively promote using Overpower as much as possible because of DPGCD. Removing Overpower from Sudden Death would avoid overwriting procs.

While I agree that this could be a wonderful solution, I think that using Overpower at any point would feel like a waste because you'd rather be pressing Slam instead to get a CD reduction on Mortal Strike. Slam already does more DPGCD, and MS as well, compared to Overpower.

Like you're saying, though, even if omitting a Sudden Death-proccing Overpower from the rotation weren't a DPS loss, the rage needed to maintain a 4.5-second cooldown for Mortal Strike with Slams would be unsustainable. The anxiety you're describing might serve as a beneficial tension — not unlike the desire to use Heroic Strike as often as possible versus the reality of limited resources and inefficiency of the attack.

Anyway, not to go too far out on my Slam limb — your point is similar to mine (and others') in that a 1-sec. GCD for Overpower is anachronistic for Arms' current state. It had charm in the kit of a dark horse PvE prospect coming out of Wrath; that was a long time ago, and the cooldown mismatches are kind of irritating now. Even if that issue were resolved, the change would still conflict with changes made in previous iterations from the beta until now. On the bright side, though, most of the conflicts are obvious and reversible.

So I wrote up this big post last night, and the forums logged me out and ate the post. That was annoying.

1 seems to have been implemented.

2 I don't really like, I'm afraid it makes Arms feel too similar to fury, which really isn't needed.

I am sympathetic to 3, but GC seems to have put his foot down on fixing Arms scaling, not seeing any problem with it. Also, that exact fix I don't agree with, making Deep Wounds into a super DoT doesn't feel like the right way to go. I'd rather see something like the old Deep Wounds come back in the form of our mastery.

4 would be nice to free up some room in the rotation, but again leads to feeling more like Fury (more uses of CS is one of the major differences), and takes away the only proc that Arms has to react to rotationally, which is kind of sad.



Are you sure your sim build is taking advantage of the reduced Overpower GCD? Just looking at it, it doesn't seem like Slam is used enough relative to the other abilities.

Oh wait, I see. You have impending victory specced in there, that's why slam usage is lower than I was expecting. It also looks like Heroic Throw is getting used several times, and HS is getting used more than I would expect. (Seriously I've gone an hour attacking with only hitting HS once or twice). Something in your action priority is funky, try speccing out of impending victory, and putting Slam higher on the priority, and see how that affects the DPS.



Looking at SEP is a trap. There are only a handful of specs out there that have a stat as high as .8 of its primary. The main thing to look at is the scale factors. The majority of strength based DPS specs have strength values weighted around 3.5.

The agi specs are generally around 4.5 with lower weapon scaling and secondary scaling mostly equal with strength specs.

The int specs are generally around 4.5 with no weapon scaling, but higher secondary scaling than the other specs.

The average secondary scaling values for Agi/Str specs is around 1.4-1.7, that is the normal range that most stats should fall into for us as a strength spec. Honestly, even just having two stats within that range would be okay. But having a single stat within that normal range means we don't have a second semi-useful stat we can reforge to when crit isn't available, which is sad.

Basically ideally you have one of the following for scaling:
1) Strength and Weapon DPS scaling combined are absurdly high, enough that it compensates for all secondaries being pretty lame.
2) Strength/Weapon scaling are within the normal average, and you get one very high secondary with two very weak secondaries.
3) Strength/Weapon scaling are within the normal average, and you get two above average secondaries, with one weak/below average secondary.
4) Strength/Weapon and all secondaries are within the average.

Judging by GCs post a while back, #1 seems to be the goal for Arms, it's just not there. Its strength and weapon damage average out to be about average. Doing something to boost its strength scaling could bring it up. (I think this is the intent with the deep wounds buff).

Personally I think #3 is ideal, because with the way reforging works, you generally have to reforge some pieces to one stat besides your best secondary or hit/expertise, especially as you gear up. Having two good stats lets you focus on those, and if they're above average, you can take the hit from not getting much from the third below average stat.

The problem with Arms of course is we have one average stat, and two below average stats. And it's set right next to a spec that has one top notch stat and one above average stat, with better strength scaling to boot. The two specs simply having different types of scaling would be one thing, but when one straight up trounces the other in every way, of course that one will pull ahead, which is the main problem.


No need to increase the base, just double the scale factor so we get the benefit of increased scaling without making it a ridiculous (20%+) portion of our damage.

I could also see something like making it a RPPM proc with 4-5 ppm. There are at least two other routes they could take that would be more effective (MS cd+gcd scaled by haste, or all gcds to 1s, and as Aelihild suggested Slam reduces MS cooldown by .5s, basically giving our rotation room to grow with haste)



I agree that the rotation has become very bland. I'm not as sold as you and Aedilhild that the 1s OP gcd is a bad idea, I think just unlinking CS from OP would make it okay.


Tying SD procs to Opportunity Strikes instead of a strike we actively choose to use would be one way to bump mastery value up without giving it a total redesign.

I was looking at the table at the bottom that tells you how many times each ability got used. ie:

Heroic Throw - 9.3
Heroic Strike - 14.7
Impending Victory - 5.4

Those are the ones that strike me as odd. Heroic Throw + Impending Victory are taking up 14 globals that could conceivably have been used by Slam, and the Heroic Strike usage says there was some extra rage at some point. It could just be the rage gen not lining up well with the rotation, but it could also be an issue with the priorities.

As you point out, most of the space is taken up by CS/OP/MS, but that doesn't mean that the rest is irrelevant.

Deleting Heroic Throw and being way more conservative with HS (only during CS and rage >100) gives a couple hundred dps. However the biggest gain can be found by having *more* Impending Victory as it has better DPR than Slam. This means

MS>EX>OP>IV>Slam gives us ~116kdps. Even putting Slam over IV during CS is worse. without IV we are at ~114k

Interesting, I wouldn't have guessed IV's DPR was that good.

Out of curiousity, what does bumping up IV's priority like that do to our strength scaling? Also does your sim account for the doubled Deep Wounds? I would expect those to make strength scaling a bit better overall.

Another idea would be to have Opportunity strikes generate small amounts of rage.. This would give a better mastery scaling and would make us use HS (at all).