Fury 4.3 BiS - Page 5

reichardt · 12/25/11, 9:11 AM

Originally Posted by Runtime

Your not really wasting the proc. Your just delaying it by 30 seconds. Your going to be using recklessness anyways so a crit proc isnt going to be as effective. The main thing you want from the Creche is the passive str anyways which you will still have.

Edit:Ran the numbers on Landsoul's spreadsheet and keeping the Creche Equipped and not using the mastery tank trinket is better. Not sure if Eye of the Unmaking has the Same ICD since its a stacking buff.

From my experience with Vessel of Acceleration, stacking trinkets does not have ICD's upon equip.

Furias · 12/25/11, 3:31 PM

That is incorrect. When you equip your trinket it puts it on a 30 second regardless of the ICD on the Proc.

No it does not. There are 3 different kind of trinkets:

1) Trinkets with a "Use/Activation" Effect. e.g. [Ruthless Gladiator's Badge of Victory]
2) Trinkets with a Proc on hit/crit. e.g. [Creche of the Final Dragon]
3) Trinkets with a stacking Buff. e.g. [Eye of Unmaking]

The first category of trinkets has a 30 second activation cooldown on equip.
The second category triggers the ICD on equip.
The third category normaly doesn't have an ICD at all.

To come back to the original question, [Creche of the Final Dragon] has an ICD of 115 seconds. Because of that you would probably loose 33% Uptime of the Buff considering a fight of ~6min length(Ultraxion HM).
However you could still use a trinket of the third category without problems, if you want to exchange it with a trinket of your Mastery Prepull Set.

Datachanger · 12/26/11, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by Spoonlover

I got the 390 Grathalak last week and and a 397 Experiment Slicer last night. The rule of thumb would have the 397 axe go in my MH and OH the Sword, yet the proc is requiring it to go MH. That's going to save me a bit a time, so thank.

Is the necessarily true?
I have been testing this by using a /cast [@focus] spellname macro to a target so that I am not interfered by auto attack.
I have, multiple times, gotten a tentacle proc from using bloodthirst. (It could also be deep wounds tick, but even if so, the ability that gave it deep wounds was dealt by a MH ability.)
I am believing that the weapon doesn’t have to be in the main hand to get the tentacle procs from a MH ability.
Also, if this is true, does that mean it has a lesser proc chance…? I have no idea how to test that.

junialum · 12/27/11, 1:48 PM

I believe the benefit of putting Gurth in MH is so that Slam will proc the tentacle. Else MH or OH are about equal.

junialum · 12/27/11, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by Furias

You are delaying the proc by 100 seconds. Equipping a trinket triggers the internal Cooldown of the Proc, which is 100 seconds for this trinket.

Edit: Apparently the ICD for [Creche of the Final Dragon] is even higher. According to the Fury Dps Spreadsheet-Thread it is 115 seconds.

I have used the LFR and now the normal version of this trinket. It's pretty much consistently up every 2 mins. Lines up with Deadly Calm on my end well. (+/- a few seconds at most)

Elvinar · 12/28/11, 2:04 PM

I am testing Gur'talak OH last night, and it's proc from BT.

Proc from BT - YouTube

P.S. Russian server.

Tengarez · 12/29/11, 8:59 PM

Originally Posted by Elvinar

I am testing Gur'talak OH last night, and it's proc from BT.

Proc from BT - YouTube

P.S. Russian server.

That is interesting. The question remains though, is the proc rate lower for the offhand?

Have you seen it proc from slam yet? Or only bloodthirst?

Datachanger · 12/29/11, 11:55 PM

I've tested slam 650+ times, thats about 7.7% chance for it to NOT proc.
I think it is safe to say that slam will not proc Gurthalak when it is in the OH.

Zimeron · 12/30/11, 8:44 AM

Someone posted testing they had done of Gurthalak in the OH already to the SimC issue site. Issue 985 - simulationcraft - Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps - World of Warcraft DPS Simulator - Google Project Hosting

Another finding: My post considering Gurth in the offhand and will main-hand hits proc it. It is correct, but because I was using a weapon-based attack. Melee attacks that are -NOT- weapon-based, such as bloodthirst, -CAN- still proc a tentacle, regardless of what hand it is in, as long as Gurthalak is equipped.

So assuming random weapon in mainhand, gurth in offhand.

Bloodthirst? Yes.
Heroic Strike? Yes.
Cleave? Yes.
Slam? No.
Raging Blow? Offhand hit can proc it, main hand can't.
Whirlwind? Same as Raging Blow. 1 roll per offhand hit, can proc multiple times from the same ability if it hits multiple times.
Colossus Smash? No.
Thunder Clap? Yes.
Heroic Leap? Yes.

Datachanger · 12/30/11, 5:34 PM

Thank you very much for that.
It makes sense.

In that thread, nowhere does it definitively say that it is better to have a RF Gurthalak in the Main Hand with a 397 OH, vs the other way around. That is the whole point of contention.

epurator · 01/02/12, 2:49 AM

Originally Posted by landsoul

BiS TG 57279.77 DPS Ultraxion 5m40s profile +Mastery Boost 200% BS/JC

head: T13H
neck: Necklace of Black Dragon's Teeth
shoulder: Backbreaker Spaulders H (Mstry->Hit)
back: Valor
chest: T13H (Mstry->Crit)
wrist: Rockhide Bracers H (Mstry->Hit)
hands: T13H
waist: Runescriven Demon Collar H (Mstry->Hit)
legs: T13H (Mstry->Crit)
feet: Treads of Cursed Flesh H (Mstry->Hit)
r1: Breathstealer Band H (Mstry->Hit)
r2: Curled Twilight Claw (Mstry->Exp)
t1: Eye of Unmaking
t2: Creche of the Final Dragon
MH: Gurthalak H
OH: Cudgel of the Warmaster H (Haste->Hit)
th: Valor (Exp->Hit)

I was wondering, why the OH is Cudgel of the Warmaster H (Haste->Hit) and not the Gurthalak H
? I would like have some explanation please.

reichardt · 01/02/12, 4:13 AM

Originally Posted by epurator

I was wondering, why the OH is Cudgel of the Warmaster H (Haste->Hit) and not the Gurthalak H
? I would like have some explanation please.

Because Gurthalak's behavior when wielded in the off-hand has not been properly tested yet. Until known 100% how it works when wielded in the off-hand, it can't be compared to a weapon with static stats like Cudgel of the Warmaster

landsoul · 01/02/12, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by reichardt

Because Gurthalak's behavior when wielded in the off-hand has not been properly tested yet. Until known 100% how it works when wielded in the off-hand, it can't be compared to a weapon with static stats like Cudgel of the Warmaster

Dual-wielding behavior must be tested extensively until a conclusion can be made.

The additional proc rate, strength, and weapon damage must outweigh the haste, hit , and crit that would come from the Cudgel.

Henqetnetjer · 01/04/12, 10:21 PM

Decided to do a bit of my own testing.
Working on the Raider's Training Dummy in Org.

No buffs. No cds other than Inner Rage (macro'd to HS for me) and CS on cd.
Only working with BT, HS, RB, and Slam.

Tried to stick to a pretty strict gcd locked rotation. Tried to make it the same across the three attempts though I am aware there will be some player error involved here.

Each of these "Tests" was run at as close to 5 minutes as I could manage via a stopwatch on the phone.

CompareBot! - RaidBots - Web Tools for WoW Nerds
That is the compare bot. Hopefully it is labeled well enough for anyone who would like to take a closer look at things but just in case.

TOO : Tentacle of the Old Ones

Test #1 (MH = (r) Gurth, OH = (lfr) Gurth)
Total dmg : 7,028,317
TOO dmg : 1,722,035

Test #2 (MH = (r) Gurth, OH = (r) Atraxis (haste forged to hit))
Total dmg : 6,022,816
TOO dmg : 861,085

Test #3 (MH = (lfr) Gurth, OH = (r) Gurth)
Total dmg : 6,552,180
TOO dmg : 1,331,715

Conclusion : According to the numbers I got back, (r) Gurth in the MH and (lfr) Gurth in the OH beats out the other possible combinations. By quite a bit as well. The second Gurth added about a million dmg over the combination with Atraxis involved even with the increased hit, haste and crit. Also the combination with adding the lfr Gurth to the MH, though it was just a random experiment, proved not to be better than the (r) version in the MH, but that could have probably be assumed.

I realize this is an incredibly small subset and that my ability to press buttons moar harder, or at the correct times, could skew these numbers. But perhaps this is a bit useful for anyone out there who is unsure how to come up with their own calculations and would like to just see the raw output from comparebot.

Thanks to LS and everyone else who has provided me with a great deal of useful information over the past few months, as I just recently started ms dps'ing raids (used to tank).

Zimeron · 01/04/12, 11:55 PM

I've updated SimC's modeling of Gurthalak to the following:
-Allow for up to 10 spawns at once (this is overkill, as over 10k iterations only 6 were up at once)
-Weapon based attacks require the sword to be in that slot. E.G. CS only procs from the MH, WW MH attack procs the MH and OH procs the OH, etc.
-Exceptions to the above are BT, HS, TC, and Cleave, which proc the weapon from either the MH or OH

This implementation is based off findings from various EJ threads as well as the open SimC issue, but specifically this comment here: Issue 985 - simulationcraft - Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps - World of Warcraft DPS Simulator - Google Project Hosting

Updating the implementation increased our T13H Fury profile by around 1500 dps, showing that Gurth is perfectly viable in the OH. It should appear in the auto sims in a few hours. Simulationcraft Results. In addition the fixes allow for a Souldrinker in the OH to proc from BT, HS, TC, and Cleave as well, so the SMF profile will see an increase as well.

Currently these changes are only in SVN, but we should have a new release "soon." (Probably Friday.)

[e] Apparently Execute and Heroic Leap also trigger the weapon from either slot, this will be updated soon.

ckarrloz · 01/05/12, 1:15 AM

Not sure how much this changes things but Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps had its proc time upped by 2 seconds to 12

Edit: it'll change once 4.3.2 is out

reichardt · 01/05/12, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by ckarrloz

Not sure how much this changes things but Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps had its proc time upped by 2 seconds to 12

Edit: it'll change once 4.3.2 is out

It will either make it better, or stay the same.

Depends if the 2 extra seconds adds an additional tick from the tentacle.
Or they increase the time between ticks.

Sinnermighty · 01/05/12, 6:12 PM

Originally Posted by reichardt

It will either make it better, or stay the same.

Depends if the 2 extra seconds adds an additional tick from the tentacle.
Or they increase the time between ticks.

We changed the duration of Gurthalak’s proc some time ago. The 4.3.2 tooltip change simply acknowledges this fix. The weapon’s damage should not change in 4.3.2.

Source: Gurth: Far more broken in pvp/pve than DWTR - Forums - World of Warcraft

So no change to Gurthalak in 4.3.2.

Rallik · 01/06/12, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Zimeron

I've updated SimC's modeling of Gurthalak to the following:
-Allow for up to 10 spawns at once (this is overkill, as over 10k iterations only 6 were up at once)
-Weapon based attacks require the sword to be in that slot. E.G. CS only procs from the MH, WW MH attack procs the MH and OH procs the OH, etc.
-Exceptions to the above are BT, HS, TC, and Cleave, which proc the weapon from either the MH or OH

This implementation is based off findings from various EJ threads as well as the open SimC issue, but specifically this comment here: Issue 985 - simulationcraft - Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps - World of Warcraft DPS Simulator - Google Project Hosting

Updating the implementation increased our T13H Fury profile by around 1500 dps, showing that Gurth is perfectly viable in the OH. It should appear in the auto sims in a few hours. Simulationcraft Results. In addition the fixes allow for a Souldrinker in the OH to proc from BT, HS, TC, and Cleave as well, so the SMF profile will see an increase as well.

Currently these changes are only in SVN, but we should have a new release "soon." (Probably Friday.)

[e] Apparently Execute and Heroic Leap also trigger the weapon from either slot, this will be updated soon.

That post you're referring to is speculation based on BT being able to proc an OH Gurthalak, which occurs for unknown reasons. BT is still a MH attack even if it doesn't use weapon damage in its damage calculation, as are HS, Cleave, and Execute. Its ability to proc a Gurthalak in either hand should not imply that every other AP based attack will behave in a similarly broken fashion. Behavior that I'm confident of is as follows:
BT and Heroic Leap can proc Gurthalak in either hand.
RB MH hits can proc the MH, and OH hits the OH.
MH auto attacks can proc the MH, and OH hits the OH.
WW MH hits can proc the MH, OH hits can not proc the OH.
Slam, CS, Execute, Cleave, and HS can only proc the MH.

Zimeron · 01/06/12, 8:46 AM

Originally Posted by Rallik

...
Its ability to proc a Gurthalak in either hand should not imply that every other AP based attack will behave in a similarly broken fashion.
...
WW MH hits can proc the MH, OH hits can not proc the OH.
Execute, Cleave, and HS can only proc the MH.

All the conclusions are results of that person's testing, nothing is based on assumptions. Either way, the attacks I quoted need more testing then, as it's now a he said, she said argument.

[e] There's also a post in Landsoul's spreadsheet thread with someone claiming BT doesn't proc the OH, which has been tested by a few people already.

Influxreptile · 01/17/12, 6:11 AM

Based on the fact that they've got an extra socket and a 20 strenght bonus compared to the 10 strenght bonus the heroic morchok bracers have I'd say (and simcraft confirms this) that for fury the crafted bracers are superior due to having more strenght and expertise being way more valuable than mastery.

Grimraven · 01/17/12, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Influxreptile

Based on the fact that they've got an extra socket and a 20 strenght bonus compared to the 10 strenght bonus the heroic morchok bracers have I'd say (and simcraft confirms this) that for fury the crafted bracers are superior due to having more strenght and expertise being way more valuable than mastery.

But since fury is only better than arms on heroic spine, and since you need to dump all the expertise you can, since tendon does not have parry/dodge table, Morchok bracers are better.

Bøtch · 01/18/12, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by Influxreptile

Based on the fact that they've got an extra socket and a 20 strenght bonus compared to the 10 strenght bonus the heroic morchok bracers have I'd say (and simcraft confirms this) that for fury the crafted bracers are superior due to having more strenght and expertise being way more valuable than mastery.

Well, including gems (no extra blacksmith gems), we have :

Rockhide Bracers HM :
Str : 346
Crit : 219
Mast : 159

Bracers of Destructive Strength :
Str : 351
Crit : 175
Exp : 151

You really think that Bracers of Destructive Strength are better than Rockhide Bracers HM? 5 more Strength, 44 Crit less. No matter what is the third stat (which will certainly be reforged and has more value for Rockhide Bracers HM), Rockhide Bracers HM are better than the crafted ones.

Lambach · 01/18/12, 3:15 PM

It completely depends on how bad mastery is. If mastery is near worthless it doenst matter if you reforge it off, you have 100 points left of near worthless. Which is what makes the crafted ones better.

Auron · 01/18/12, 4:21 PM

Expertise's value over crit is subjective to your reforge, as both expertise and hit before specials cap would obviously outpace other secondary stats but the truth of it is its only worth the value that the rest of your gear gets reforged to because of it.