[MoP] Protection Warrior - Page 2

squishye · 10/16/12, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Lowmaine

Oh, quick macro for Dodge/Parry ratios that Waniou has in his Diminishing Returns thread on the WoW Forums:

/run d=GetDodgeChance() p=235.5*d/65.631440-((235.5/65.631440)*5.01-3.22) DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Ideal parry for current dodge: "..string.format("%.2f",p))

The macro for that Dodge/Parry ratio is not right. It uses dodge DR constant from lv85 (65.63) instead of the right one at lv90 (90.4). And I don't agree with the parry DR constant either, but since our numbers are very close, it probably doesn't matter. If you follow that macro, you'll end up having too much parry like most prot warriors in "top guilds".

Originally Posted by Malevolencia

Think that's the old model of str where it gave ~25% parry rating (plus some bonuses). Testing it now ingame by swapping between a str ring with parry and a str ring without, and then removing the ring slot entirely, I find that str is very close to parry now, about 95% rating from str as already stated.

And here is the number for strength/parry ratio, so people can stop guessing: 952 STR = 1% Parry before DR, so 1 STR = 0.9296 (885/952=0.9296) parry rating. It takes "buffed" STR, so Mark/King (plate specialization if not in prot) will increase your parry rating.

Berthold · 10/16/12, 1:48 PM

Malevolencia was right. Using the current conversion gives me indeed good value out of strength. Will update the OP tomorrow-ish

Charybdis · 10/16/12, 6:49 PM

You'll probably need a few sentences to go over the parry and strength quirks because there's base gear, trinkets, enchants, and gems to cover.

On the base gear front it'll be fairly obvious that parry goes up considerably since all warrior plate has strength on it. What needs more thought are the situations where we have lowered strength on a piece to increase a secondary stat. Thanks to reforging the extra secondary stats will probably be more useful than the raw strength lost.

With trinkets it's worthwhile to note that there are no parry trinkets in heroics or raids in MoP yet, so if tanks want avoidance from trinkets it'll have to be with dodge or strength. It is possible strength will come out ahead because it's almost as effective as parry but also provides some extra oomph to SBar, even though that extra contribution isn't much compared to what vengeance contributes.

With enchants there will be choices like Bracer: Major Dodge versus Bracer; Exceptional Strength. 170 dodge versus 170 strength might end up favoring the strength enchant for the same reasons it does for trinkets: Still worth about the same as parry, but helps with SBar (and DPS).

Both trinkets and enchants can do double time for DPS pieces too. Base items can also do it, but with the overlap only being expertise/hit/mastery and the possibility of a DPS spec not liking mastery it's less likely to be fully effective.

Gems change things. If it were 1:1 strength, parry, and dodge, strength might end up winning. Because secondary stats get double the rating amount though, the secondary stats are the clear winner for absolute ratings. Since expertise, mastery, and hit cover red, yellow, and blue sockets, respectively, worrying about strength probably isn't an issue.

Speaking of gems, there are the meta gems to consider. [Austere Primal Diamond], [Eternal Primal Diamond], and [Effulgent Primal Diamond] all have their uses. I have not seen any discussion on them yet but chances are [Austere Primal Diamond] will minimize relative damage taken more than [Eternal Primal Diamond] on physical fights as per the numbers on page 1. For absolute damage reduction there will probably be a certain mastery point where [Eternal Primal Diamond] overtakes [Austere Primal Diamond] if it doesn't already do it from the start, but the various fights really need to be weighed to consider how much damage is blockable.

Berthold · 10/17/12, 5:16 AM

Changed strength part, updated macro using Level 90 cap, added wowhead gear links using T14H level scalefactors.

BluBlaBlu · 10/18/12, 4:56 PM

Hard cap on Expertise? Isn't too much? Just asking

Cthalupa · 10/19/12, 4:57 AM

Originally Posted by Lowmaine

Just reading over this, I don't mean to sound nitpicky, but do you honestly recommend 15% Expertise in tank gear? Seems a little overkill don't you think? At least until maybe Heroic T14 at the earliest if we wanna still be able to have some avoidance and mastery. >_>;

Also, on the note of Talents specifically centric to Protection; what's your opinion on the final tier? Avatar seems like a decent survival cooldown due to the boost in rage generation, and it's also very nice for damage. Bloodbath is the choice for pure DPS and Storm Bolt hits like a truck.

The last 7.5% is just as valuable as the first 7.5% since you're attacking the boss from the front. There's no reason to feel that getting to 15% is any less worthwhile than getting to 7.5%, unless you're sitting at full rage all the time, or have enough rage to completely mitigate all of the incoming damage. With SBar and SBlock being so heavy on your rage usage and being your best guaranteed way of reducing or eliminating incoming damage, hitting 15% is going to be a very very safe bet.

A1win · 10/19/12, 5:51 AM

The last 7.5% expertise is only half as valuable as the first 7.5% by definition since it only affects parry and not dodge and parry. However, since the first half actually increases your chance to hit by 15%, it's twice as good as hit, and the second half equal to hit. Or am I wrong? Do bosses actually have 15% chance to parry and 7.5% chance to dodge?

Charybdis · 10/19/12, 6:35 AM

Originally Posted by A1win

The last 7.5% expertise is only half as valuable as the first 7.5% by definition since it only affects parry and not dodge and parry. However, since the first half actually increases your chance to hit by 15%, it's twice as good as hit, and the second half equal to hit. Or am I wrong? Do bosses actually have 15% chance to parry and 7.5% chance to dodge?

Incorrect on both. Bosses have 7.5% dodge and 7.5% parry, and Expertise affects dodge first then parry, hence why its value is steady. As stated in the OP, Blizz has done an excellent job of balancing the various tank stats, which means expertise is not twice as valuable as hit for the first 7.5% because then that wouldn't be balanced.

A1win · 10/20/12, 7:45 AM

Originally Posted by Charybdis

Incorrect on both. Bosses have 7.5% dodge and 7.5% parry, and Expertise affects dodge first then parry, hence why its value is steady. As stated in the OP, Blizz has done an excellent job of balancing the various tank stats, which means expertise is not twice as valuable as hit for the first 7.5% because then that wouldn't be balanced.

Ah, that makes things easier then. So in other words, expertise becomes better after the "soft cap" for tanks (and it doesn't make sense to call it a "soft cap" anymore), since removing a parry also decreases damage taken on its own due to not granting a faster hit for the boss (assuming parry still works this way). If I'm not wrong again, this should mean that it's better to get 15% expertise instead of 7.5% expertise and 7.5% hit.

Dots · 10/20/12, 8:28 AM

Many bosses had parry haste disabled since TBC and it was subsequently completely removed from the game, I think that happened with Cataclysm. The only difference between expertise "soft cap" and "hard cap" now is that the parry reduction won't do anything while attacking from the back.

kagan · 10/22/12, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by Cthalupa

The last 7.5% is just as valuable as the first 7.5% since you're attacking the boss from the front. There's no reason to feel that getting to 15% is any less worthwhile than getting to 7.5%, unless you're sitting at full rage all the time, or have enough rage to completely mitigate all of the incoming damage. With SBar and SBlock being so heavy on your rage usage and being your best guaranteed way of reducing or eliminating incoming damage, hitting 15% is going to be a very very safe bet.

very safe, but in current gear getting 15% exp is almost near impossible, unless your specifically gearing your trinkets to get it, but then you are sacrificing 2600~ stamina.

i honestly don't think its worth it in current gear, but it may be something to look at with heroic stats.

im pretty comfortable with the EH>hit=exp>mastery>2xparry=dodge

Dots · 10/22/12, 7:38 PM

It's very easy to cap both hit and expertise with gems, enchants and reforge even in 463 gear. That still leaves the trinket slots for stamina, which is plenty at least for 10 man. 25 might be different, but being in full control of your rage is really good either way.

Iol · 10/23/12, 5:54 PM

Originally Posted by Krennick

And to revisit the stamina point - I'm not denying that higher stamina is less relative damage taken. This is only important if you are concerned about your health % at any given point. This is only really a critical bit if death (the magical 0%) is likely to occur. Higher stamina is also higher absolute damage taken - and when healer mana economy is taken into account that can be quite important.

Well, not to nitpick but if you are taking into account healer mana efficiency, you need to consider the type of healer. As a shaman, your health % at any given point is quite important to me. If you can survive 2 non-blocked boss hit with 50% HP instead of needing 60% hp, that roughly translate to a 6% healing bonus on my end, at those HP %, at my current gear level. (Overall its a bit more complex than that, but thats for us shaman to worry about...) Also, a shaman healer will up your HP by 10%, giving more value to stam.

However, I'm not saying that you should stack stam over everything if you have a Shaman healer. What I am saying is that you may want to give more value to stam with a shaman healer and less with a disc priest since stam doesnt change much to how their shields protect you, however they like it when you parry more and their shields stay up a bit longer during its cooldown.

So maybe those stam trinkets are better than avoidance trinkets when healed by a shaman and to an extent a druid (hots do a better job if you arent topped all the time). The opposite could be true when healed by a priest or paladin (absorb mecanics).

Some food for thoughts.

kagan · 10/24/12, 9:31 AM

Originally Posted by Dots

It's very easy to cap both hit and expertise with gems, enchants and reforge even in 463 gear. That still leaves the trinket slots for stamina, which is plenty at least for 10 man. 25 might be different, but being in full control of your rage is really good either way.

capping 5100 exp (15%) is not easy unless specifically gemmed/trinketed for. I know there is one dps STR trinket with 800 something expertise, i sit with an ilvl of 476 with dual stam trinkets and reforging to 4760 exp(racial) and 2500 hit is unreachable in my current gear.

Kagan @ Eredar [US] - WoW Reforge Calculator

getting parried is annoying, but i dont think its worth losing mastery/stam for the last 7.5% just yet.

Deadalious · 10/24/12, 11:49 AM

What enchant are you guys using? Colossus seems awesome because it literally is almost up, however 7,500 isn't really anywhere near remotely useful in 25 man.

River's song is obviously the one aimed at tanks, however, having 1450 dodge up for 7 seconds twice every minute seems to pale in comparison to 1450 strength.