[MoP] Protection Warrior - Page 4

Berthold · 11/11/12, 11:38 AM

Napkin Math is here Mists of Pandaria: All Specs. Also simcraft has full support for protection warriors (and you can just sim SBar vs SBlock). I should make this more prominent in the OP.

damagedgoods · 11/14/12, 1:59 PM

I was just watching directions about that MoP prot warrior only using Heroic Strike or Cleave on Ultimatum proc. Is there any negative impact to just completely ignoring the proc and not using it at all?

Berthold · 11/14/12, 2:06 PM

It's free damage (on the off-gcd) and a chance for a weapon proc.... So sure you do not need to, but why wouldn't you.

Bryjoered · 11/20/12, 4:38 PM

Hi, why is hit ranked higher than expertise, they function in the same way. A miss is the same as a dodge or parry. Also, why is hit/exp ranked above mastery none of the best tanks seem to be sacrificing mastery to reach the hit/exp cap.

By your stat priority, warr tanks should be reaching the expertise cap before they even think about reforging for mastery, which just seems wrong. For right now it seems like the most common priority is stamina>mastery>hit (7.5) =exp(up to 15%)> parry>dodge

Berthold · 11/20/12, 5:02 PM

I can't comment on what other tanks are doing, I only know what looks to be the best approach and that tells me that hit/expertise/mastery are pretty even, with parry and dodge coming closely after them. I can only imagine that a lot of people have a hard time forgetting that for ~8 years, hit/expertise were crappy tank stats.

Bryjoered · 11/20/12, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by Berthold

spell miss is mitigated via hit, not expertise. And I can't comment on what other tanks are doing, I only know what looks to be the best approach and that tells me that hit/expertise/mastery are pretty even, with parry and dodge coming closely after them. I can only imagine that a lot of people have a hard time forgetting that for ~8 years, hit/expertise were crappy tank stats.

Even reading thecks blog about warriors brings me to the conclusion that hit/exp is the way to go, but I don't see where he says they outperform mastery. I still don't. see how a dodge and a miss are different. So your saying that hit governs two thing whether I miss and whether my spell hits. But what if my spell misses isn't that functionally the same as a miss or a dodge
As of patch 5.04 expertise and hit both add to spell hit for all classes,. Expertise only gives spell hit up to 7.5, so hit/exp are equal until exp one or both gets to 7.5. If exp gets there first, hit then needs to be leveled.

Berthold · 11/21/12, 2:43 AM

you were obviously right with exp providing spell hit. I should stop replying early in the morning. Will comment on the other things soon.

Bryjoered · 11/21/12, 9:18 AM

Theck posted on the mr robot forums and said that exp and hit are exactly equal until caps. So, having 15% exp and 0% hit are the same as 7.5% exp and 7.5% hit

A1win · 11/21/12, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Bryjoered

Theck posted on the mr robot forums and said that exp and hit are exactly equal until caps. So, having 15% exp and 0% hit are the same as 7.5% exp and 7.5% hit

I still believe that expertise only affects dodge and parry chance and hit only affects miss chance. They are still practically exactly identical until caps, even though they are technically different. 7.5% hit removes chance to miss, 7.5% expertise removes target's chance to dodge, and the last 7.5% expertise (to 15% total) removes target's chance to parry. Each provides an equal amount of chance of landing an attack (parry obviously only if you hit from front), but they do it in different ways. It would be silly to have two stats do the exact same thing.

Bryjoered · 11/21/12, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by A1win

I still believe that expertise only affects dodge and parry chance and hit only affects miss chance. They are still practically exactly identical until caps, even though they are technically different. 7.5% hit removes chance to miss, 7.5% expertise removes target's chance to dodge, and the last 7.5% expertise (to 15% total) removes target's chance to parry. Each provides an equal amount of chance of landing an attack (parry obviously only if you hit from front), but they do it in different ways. It would be silly to have two stats do the exact same thing.

Yeah, so 15% exp and zero hit would leave you with zero chance for the boss to parry or dodge your attack but 7.5% for your attack to miss. 7.5 hit and 7.5 exp would leave you with zero chance for your target to dodge the attack and zero chance for your target to be missed, but 7.5% chance to parry. Same shit either way. The boss has an equal chance of dodging/paarying/being missed intially.

Berthold · 11/22/12, 4:16 AM

Regarding mastery being valued better than hit/exp by others. There is an undocumented internal cooldown of 3 secs for gaining rage from a critical block. It might be that Theck didn't implement this when doing his analysis. This has a significant impact on the mastery value.

Hit being valued slightly above expertise is due to thunderclap ignoring parry/dodge anyways.
I just ran the latest simcraft for a T14H tank getting hit by 700k before mitigation every 2.5secs:

SBlock on CD, extra rage into SBar
Hit: 0.7, Exp: 0.66, Mastery 0.62, Parry 0.48, Strength 0.47, Dodge 0.43

SBar on CD without overwriting the buff
Hit: 0.68, Exp: 0.67, Parry 0.51, Strength 0.5, Dodge 0.46, Mastery 0.4

Bryjoered · 11/22/12, 10:12 PM

Thunderclap has such a minimal impact on a boss fight though. Unless you are add tanking, where it will be used on cooldown basically, you use it once every 30 seconds or maybe not at all if someone in your raid can apply the "weakened blows" debuff. Still, I see what you're saying weird the Mastery has that pointless internal cooldown, but Theck said that Mastery is definitely slightly better in terms of total damage reduction.

Berthold · 11/23/12, 2:36 AM

If somebody else is providing weakened blows, then Hit/Exp are identical.

And regarding Mastery: As I was saying, without modeling the ICD of Crit Block, mastery is better. Taking it into account, it loses a lot of its value. I would assume that this is the reason why theck and I/Simcraft come to different results.

Without the ICD our defensive capability would scale with the number of mobs, i.e., 10 mobs hitting for 20k would give us more rage (thus more active mitigation) than a single mob hitting for 200k. We would be a lot better on multi-target fights than the other tanks (Prot Pala trash tank anyone??). So this might be the reason for it.

Bloodhawker · 11/23/12, 8:24 AM

Not only Thunderclap, but Shockwave (not sure about that) and Dragon Roar (definitely) aren't affected by expertise as well. While Dragon Roar is offensive only, Shockwave can have defensive value on stunnable targets.

Without the ICD our defensive capability would scale with the number of mobs

We still have an effect that does this: Revenge resetting on avoiding.

Berthold · 11/23/12, 8:40 AM

You are definitely right, yet the revenge resetting only scales up to a small number of mobs, as we only can hit revenge every 1.5 seconds at most. We also do not want to clip Shield Slam, so assuming combined dodge+parry of 25%, three mobs with a swing timer of 1.5 are already giving enough procs: Over 6 seconds we are attacked 12 times, thus dodge or parry 3 times, allowing for SS ->Rev -> Rev -> Rev