[MoP] Protection Warrior - Page 8

Berthold · 02/12/13, 3:28 AM

Trinkets are looking interesting this time:

Raid: 502 / 522 / 535
dodge + mastery proc
Stamina + Absorb on Use
Exp + Self Heal proc on <35%
Mastery + Self Heal on Use

Valor: 522
Exp + Str Proc
Mastery + Dodge on Use

And the set items have different combination of two secondary stats.

Spazzster · 02/18/13, 8:42 PM

Thanks to all who have added to this thread. Great info - I'd like to have people's input on whether or not my logic hear is flawed. To note, I am currently stacking mastery after hitting 7.5 hit and 15 exp - and picking up stam where/when I can get it.

My question is in regards to parry/dodge stacking. I have seen the numbers for why mastery seems to be better for smoothing, but I'm not sure if those numbers do not take into account the use of CD's.

Here's what I'm getting at - Essentially, we can keep SBlock up for 24 seconds straight before a 3 second gap between when the mitigation wears off and when our next charge is available. Now yes, we could leave ourselves open for that 3 seconds (or use SBarr) - OR we could implement a rotation of CD's such as this (assuming current 4 pc set bonus and not including trinket CD's):

24 sec SBlock - 10 Sec Demo Shout - 24 Sec Sblock - 12 Sec Shield Wall - 24 Sec SBlock - 20 Sec Last stand - 24 Sec SBlock 10 Sec Demo Shout.....etc etc. Our weakest link at this point is Demo shout at 20% reduction (last stand technically has no reduction but the 30% increased health equals approximately a 26% reduction in relative dmg taken).

With a rotation of CD's like this, you're always taking 20% reduced dmg at a minimum, meaning that nothing is coming through unmitigated in the first place. If that's the case, then we can't argue that mastery stacking is required in order to smooth potentially unmitigated dmg. Assuming we're already reducing ALL incoming dmg by at least 20%, the next step would be to maximize TDR which, as I understand it, Parry and Dodge are the clear winners.

So by this logic - we should be stacking parry/dodge, assuming we are able to keep this rotation up for the duration of a tanking stint (not including tank swaps).

Does this make sense? Where have I went wrong?

Hamsda · 02/19/13, 4:16 AM

This may be true, but in nearly every case for the past few expansions you have to keep some, if not all, of those cooldowns ready for certain phases/mechanics/attacks during an encounter. Smoothing your damage intake is of course better than tdr from a healer perspective, but reducing critical situations by using cooldowns during key moments in a fight is even more important.

Xaerran · 02/19/13, 10:02 AM

I would have to agree with Hamsda - If you are using those CDs just to smooth damage you are doing something seriously wrong. Your logic also assumes all damage to be physical, which is not very common anymore. Having your mage linked in your profile doesn't help me ascertain what content level you are currently tanking, but that may have an impact on your assumptions.

One thing to keep in mind is Mastery increases crit block chance, which also provides rage, thereby closing that 3 second gap. With the current tier 4-pc. I am usually able to maintain sBlock nearly the whole time I am tanking (pooling rage a bit during tank swaps when I am not tanking).

Merithra · 02/19/13, 10:49 AM

In most combats, you can’t away with using your CDs just on CD. But it’s a fair point, considering what the next patch brings.

Having a new meta which gives 20% reduction with 1ppm (giving a fairly good uptime on 2 tank bosses), which replaces the old meta (so we lose the +1% block, +2% crit bloc), certainly favors Shield Barrier over Shield Block. Add having more armor due to more ilvl, more avoidance whether you reforge out of it or not, and the fact that mastery favors Shield Block, but it also improves Shield Barrier (contrary to avoidance which only improves Barrier), and Shield Barrier keeps getting better. Add the 4pc bonus too, which counters a bit the main problem of Shield Barrier (that you run out of rage at some point, you don’t avoid, and get hit on the face). Of course, SBar will be nerfed by 10%, but even so Barrier keeps getting better .

Foxxy · 02/19/13, 10:59 AM

I don't find the Blizzard Source,
but the new meta gem will be an additional gem in your helmet.

So we would not lose our shieldlock met gem.

Merithra · 02/19/13, 11:50 AM

They do replace them,

https://mobile.twitter.com/Ghostcraw...28896648224768

Berthold · 02/20/13, 4:34 AM

Hi I've build a first guess at the T15H BiS list: As Raden has a nice chest piece, I picked this as the offpiece.

Trinketwise, You will really need to be deciding on a per encounter basis, although the Dodge + Mastery Proc (delicate vial) looks really weak right now. In the end, I settled for the the two valor trinkets as they provide the best damage reduction.

Prot 20.02.13 with SB+Sbar
Prot 20.02.13 with Sbar only

Surprised to see Sbar only still superior to SBlock+Sbar.

idefiler6 · 02/20/13, 8:03 AM

Originally Posted by Berthold

Hi I've build a first guess at the T15H BiS list: As Raden has a nice chest piece, I picked this as the offpiece.

Trinketwise, You will really need to be deciding on a per encounter basis, although the Dodge + Mastery Proc (delicate vial) looks really weak right now. In the end, I settled for the the two valor trinkets as they provide the best damage reduction.

Prot 20.02.13 with SB+Sbar
Prot 20.02.13 with Sbar only

Surprised to see Sbar only still superior to SBlock+Sbar.

This is very detailed, thanks. So given these sim results would you say we're still looking at prioritizing hit/expertise caps in T15?

Yaargh · 02/20/13, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Berthold

Hi I've build a first guess at the T15H BiS list: As Raden has a nice chest piece, I picked this as the offpiece.

...

Surprised to see Sbar only still superior to SBlock+Sbar.

I think with Sbar's synergy with avoidance and mastery's competition with avoidance we'll continue to see Sbar being tops for total damage reduction even with the nerf. It will be interesting to see how much the nerf affects Sbar's already lower smoothing performance.

Spazzster · 02/21/13, 3:42 AM

@Xaerran - I'm not currently using the rotation suggested as I wanted to check the community brain power first. My apologies for having only my mage listed. My tank is Kultz on Turalyon and we are working our way through Heroic MV/HoF.

Also, you may be confused on the mechanics a little - the 3 second gap window has nothing to do with having enough rage. SB recharges are set on a 9 second timer, but SB only lasts for 6 seconds.

Nonetheless, I am convinced that it's probably a bad idea. So, here's a second thought that I'd love to hear people's concerns with -

If we can have SBlock up the majority of the time, it relegates mastery's benefit to crit blocks only (which is highly up and down if we take Berthold's 2 number of 16.27 Crit Blocks and 39.85, using similar gear/mastery levels).

So my question is - would stacking stam through gems/enchants be a reasonable idea in that it reduces the relative dmg? (I know this isn't a good approach for Garaj'al and Voodoo dolls, but that fight aside, I'm also keeping in mind Lei Shi, Elegon, and all other magic dmg fights)

Berthold · 02/21/13, 3:51 AM

That looks like a good explanation. But what to do now on Blizzard's end? They could just Nerf SBar every tier to make sure that the spread isn't too big, but there might be better ways:
1) reduce SBar's synergy with better gear
2) increase SBlock's synergy
3) just plain out break SBar only as a mechanic.

Here are some brainstorming impressions (most of those with obvious flaws)

1:
They could, contrary to any other absorb effect in the game, put SBar before avoidance. (and buff SBar value accordingly)

2:
Every time we avoid, we get a buff that increases our mastery value by x%.
Plainly increase mastery value to block % so that we overcompensate the fewer non-avoided hits.

3: Nerf SBar to the ground and make it stronger if cast shortly after an SBlock. This would require SBlock to have some effect on magical attacks...

I do not expect Blizz to do anything besides a numbers hotfix this close to 5.2 or to delay it, so this is more a "what could Blizz do in 5.3". Keep the ideas coming

Yaargh · 02/21/13, 6:42 PM

I agree that they won't do anything in 5.2 other than possibly tweaking the nerf amount but I like the model the way it is right now. SBlock only gives you superior smoothing, SBar only (no overwrite) gives you superior total damage reduction. This lets tanks pick their poison depending on their raid's needs. What I don't like however is that nearly every hybrid strategy performs worse than one of the pure ones. Theck had a nice series on this a month or two ago if you haven't seen it.

As for Blizz's options I don't really have many good ideas right now, but here's a stab at it: (using your option numbers from above)
1:
They could lower SBar's duration to 4s so that the chance of it expiring increases more dramatically with avoidance

2:
Avoiding during SBlock could increase the duration by the time of 1 boss swing, with an ICD or cap per SBlock to avoid infinite uptime

3:
Make the SBar absorb less effective on physical damage but the same on magical

Personally I've been playing SBar only (no overwrite) and I enjoy it. I like being able to pop mitigation more often instead of waiting for 60 rage each time for SBlock. The big difference in TDR helps our 10 man 2 heal almost every fight since spikes in 10 man aren't as dangerous as in 25 man.

Berthold · 02/22/13, 3:15 AM

I really like the "dodge increases Duration of Sblock". It is easy to implement and easy to explain to the players.. They should go with it

Aedilhild · 02/22/13, 9:06 PM

The "problem" — for lack of a better word — with Shield Barrier is that it's flexible, universally applicable, and uniform. Shield Block is expensive, situational, and unpredictable in its effectiveness moment-to-moment. One can only imagine that novice players are as confused over proper usage as experienced players are irritated by the counter-intuitive result.

The two abilities seem balanced on circumstance when they might better be balanced on function. To this end:

a) Shield Block would clearly be the default option, intended to smooth melee damage and build rage through critical blocks. Its cost would be reduced (perhaps to 20 rage) and its uptime limited by cooldowns/charges — thus challenging players to decide when to block, instead of racing to fill a bucket.

b) Shield Barrier would be the definitive protective ability, with perhaps moderate (60 rage) and strong (80 rage) absorption options.

c) Numbers would be adjusted to suit the intention of the new mechanics.

The purposes for Block and Barrier would be much clearer, as Barrier would stand out as the better ability (which it essentially is now, though one that is quite convenient to use). This arrangement ought to make a better thematic fit for a tank relying on sword-and-board to generate resources for a boss' inevitable, cyclical, big hits.