I've tanked up to Kael as fury/prot. Things of note:
- Fury > Arms for hybrid tanking from a threat generation standpoint. Case in point: Rampaged BT > MS, Enrage, Flurry, Precision.
- Gearing for Fury tanking is identical to that of MT prot goodness. The only change is stacking more resilience in lieu of defense. This means 2 things: Enrage procs (resil being calculated before defense), more AP/crit (due to using pvp gear). There is no issue with MH speed (whereas MS is between a rock and a hard place with MS/HS usage).
- Rotations used on aggro sensitive fights was normally HStrike + Sunder spam. This was pre-BT threat boost.
- On rage starved fights, the difference between a Prot and Hybrid is most felt. If it's a transition sort of fight (Vashj/Leo comes to mind), saving up rage is huge. If it's an aggro swap fight (Vreaver) it's DW in DStance until aggro threshold is met, then swapping to sword and board and unloading saved rage to steal aggro.
- Aggro 'rotations' on tauntable mobs/bosses (Lurker/Alar). Save up rage for 6sec while Taunt is on c/d, queue HStrike, Taunt, unload Revenge/Sunder before Taunt expires. Taunt expires, go into a defensive mode, TClap, keep SBlock up, Demo Shout... I've yet to experience losing aggro with this technique.

I disagree with this. Keep in mind you are a hybrid, so the talents you pick up are of interest to both roles being performed. 5/5 parry is worthless when dps'ing. 3/3 Imp HStrike is beautiful for both dps, as well as tanking. Hence, the superior choice. You only have 51pts to throw around, and especially being a hybrid, those pts are very valuable. Spend them wisely.
Granted, you stated from a tanking perspective, but how far is one going to spec 'into' tanking while remaining dps?
The optimized (imo) spec for hybrid roles is 3/44/14. DPS-wise you can keep up with the rogues, and tank-wise the only thing that severely hurts is not having Imp SBlock for MT duty.

Wouldn't agility then be desirable for a Fury/Prot build? For avoidance and crit? I know most agility on plate gear has gone away but one could socket agi/stam gems and increase rage generation via flurry uptime, and avoidance/mitigation at the same time. You'd also have a decent way to fill those red sockets on gear for bonuses.

While agility is a nice "balanced" stat, it still is lackluster for either role.

If you're tanking trash that doesn't hit that hard / require avoidance, you can just wear pvp gear, be uncrittable and generate tons of threat.

If you're tanking a boss that hits really hard, you want as much avoidance and stamina as possible, as threat generation is not an issue in a high-rage situation.

If you're somewhere in between, you can simply wear a mix of gear, rather than a 3rd gearset that fits that "tween" role.

+str gems are the only way to go. As was previously mentioned, being a hybrid means 9 times out of 10, I'm gemming for socket bonuses.
Edit: Str, like Agi, is affected by BoK- but where a hybrid falls short (Imp SBlock aside) is on threat generation. You're not critting enough in tanking gear to cater to your forte in that department, instead I've found going with bread and butter AP is the stronger case. I've no math to back this, but it's a trend I've found myself doing over the months after hitting 70. Also was previously mentioned, the stam+stat gems are highly desirable as well. No Vitality.

I don't see the point in socketing for strength and set bonuses for your tank gear if you spend most of your time in a fury/prot hybrid spec. Your hp pool is already going to be a bit gimped without vitality, and most likely, your gear isn't going to be on par with your MTs.

Also, it's not like you're going to be tanking BT/MH bosses or anything where threat is going to be an issue in a spec like that. Pushing your threat generation via the sockets (rather than say, trinkets) while sacrificing stamina seems like a bad idea for tanking trash. Plus, if you ever have to respec prot for an evening, your gear is gemmed in a way that really isn't the most efficient use of your sockets for pure prot.

We've been short a tank sometimes over the last few weeks, and we've had one of our dps warriors slap on his tank gear and do just fine. Both a 17/44 and 33/28 have tanked in MH with a mixed bag of kara, heroic, the odd T4/T5 piece and pvp gear without issue. You can still tank heroics (although I hate it when I'm not prot, it's totally doable), a Mag add, Akama adds, trash, etc. in a full dps build without much of a problem. While this isn't the point of your post, I guess I was trying to illustrate that threat gen really isn't an issue for anything that a hybrid would be tanking.

Personally, I try to keep my dps set in good shape and just respec whenever we're in progression mode for single tank stuff. For trash you're fine in tank gear, regardless of spec, and I don't worry about threat gen as much, since whatever I'm tanking won't be the first kill target.

I'm not clear on the mechanics of this, so hopefully someone can clear it up for me.

As I understand it, resillience has a separate "check" to see if you would have been crit by any damage you took for the purposes of talents like enrage and bloodcraze (I know, bloodcraze is a horrible talent). However, this check also happens when you take magical damage in PVE encounters? I'm not sure if that bug is still in game, I do recall reading that it was at one time.

You're better off with defense in most PVE encounters where survival matters because you get the additional avoidance. However, would it make more sense for a dps warrior to tank in pvp gear for threat sensitive encounters? Not only would it make crit immunity easier to achieve (freeing up item points for other stats), it would also potentially get you a 5% chance at 25% bonus damage output. Pvp gear is usually pretty heavy on crit, stamina, and AC.

Separately, how does defense work with crit talents like this?

15k for SSC/TK content with half the gear being KZ. HP pool isn't gimped. Most gems being used are hybrid stam gems to pick up worthwhile bonuses. I personally don't gear exclusively for socket gains nor strength.

Why not? I've MTed plenty of content in a hybrid spec. When I'm called to respec prot, I've an easier time holding threat and surviving- but the gear setup, as was previously mentioned is very much identical to how a prot MT would gear.

Hybrid tanks are to only tank adds/trash/heroics? Hybrids can MT fine provided they have experience in tanking as a hybrid, have geared responsibly, and have specced sufficiently. While there is no arguing optimal choices, I'm stating the case for hybrids that there isn't any progression content that can't be done fine as a hybrid. Also- Deathwish for a fearing boss, 21sec SWall, etc provides niches that a Prot warrior doesn't have at their disposal.

I realize the purpose of Quigon's post is mainly for MT Prot Warrior Tanking. I'm providing experienced insight into the world of hybridization value and capability.

I'm going to add a quick mention about enrage potentially proccing in otherwise crit-immune resilience gear in the gear section, but I'm also very curious if anyone has a solid grasp on the mechanics of enrage in a mix of resilience / defense gear (ideally test data, or sample WWS's with enrage gains but no incoming crits).

I'm not convinced on Imp HStrike for my personal use - I'm not reaching anywhere near infinite rage on anything I've been tanking so saving up to be sure BT gets used every cycle has made more sense to me than making HS's TPR slightly better. Likewise I find I'm not yet able to fit in a lot of HS's into my DPS cycle either, and the DPS sheet reflects that for my gear showing anywhere between a 0 and 1% net DPS increase when I've toggled the talent at various stages of gearing up.

However, for the purpose of the guide I'll defer to your experience and soften the imp. HS language.

edit: new guide language - "Improved HS has the benefit of being of potential use in both tank and DPS mode. It may be a good choice if you're using HS a lot in either scenario in either scenario while still consciously managing rage. If you're low rage and avoiding HS due to it's low TPR/DPR, or flooded with rage and not worrying about "per rage" factors at all, the talent may end up under-utilized."

If tanks in Hodgepodge gear are cutting it in T6, hybrid gemming good gear isn't going to make or break a hybrid tank. The guide is a bit wishy washy on these minutiae, and I really do believe things like gems/enchants for pure tanking vs. threat gems/enchants is going to be personal taste. Someone in a raid group that regularly runs 6-7 healers is going to want a slightly larger stamina pool (for reaction time), whereas someone in an 8 healer loadout with two trees who keep lifebloom up on offtanks really doesn't need the marginal stam between a pure blue gem and a purple str/stam gem.

This I can speak to from direct experience. Once you bite the bullet and get TM and Defiance, hybrid tanking heroics is fun again - there's nothing to "hate" since you have an extremely strong snap aggro tool for snagging loose mobs and there is much less pressure to execute perfectly. My subjective perception tanking heroics while DPS spec pre-2.3 was that I needed perfect execution to perform up to my personal standards, it was simply too high-stress so after doing several heroics like that I just waited for 2.3.

Nevermind.

Olon, I still am not sure how many "DPS warriors" will have Tactical mastery - especially in progression mode hybrid builds are less common, and max dps would seem the way to spec.

Also, I would put shield bash ahead of sunder armor even in the threat per second category. The chance for it to crit and the fact that it is maybe 10 threat behind on a normal hit gives it a good place (once the mob is sundered, so it hits for max). Especially on trash.

Honestly, I think the "DPS warrior tanking guide" should be catered toward a tank in a progression mode tanking a rather serious mob. Not a situation where they're wearing half DPS gear and not dying.

That means they'd be wearing their "best" tanking gear, while still trying to retain aggro.

If you can tank it in half dps gear, it probably is trivial. Of course, all of this can be amended or included as language.

For instance, something along the lines of, how can I, as a max dps Fury tank, do my best at tanking a heroic instance (in mostly blues or weak epics) without dying, and still retaining aggro.

I think your guide is a great start - but keep in mind, as Edgewalker mentioned to me, and I mentioned in my guide:

Much of tanking is subjective, or based on opinion.

But it seems good at least that you're amending things based on suggestions - such as imp HS... again though I'm not sure how many pure DPS warriors will have imp HS... I honestly don't know since I haven't specced fury since level 69.

I tanked / killed him last night after a few hours of attempts. I used mostly my Kael'thas stuff w/ Ironshield Potions to lighten the healers burden. They had no problem keeping me up. (3/5 destroyer, T6 Gloves, Darkmoon card, Dodge Trinket...) Our issue was only the skellies. When they figured that out - the fight became VERY easy.

Hi all guys,

Sorry if my english isn't too good
i'm here seeking for an answer to a question that's disturb me a little in the last
I'm tanking kara at moment and i've begun ZA with my small guild and in this months i'm using badge for taking equip that improve my damage mitigation and lessen the healer's burden

The point is that i see a lot equip with Block Value/rating and defense and way too few equip with dodge/parry
Assuming that, in general, damage reduction is better than avoidance, changing my equip wil drastically reduce my general avoidance (ad example changing boots and legs with ZA/Badge one i will sacrifice at least 50 dodge rating)

The question is "how much avoidance can i sacrifice for stamina/armor block?" or in other terms "should I remain with a minimum avoidance? and how much is this *minimum*?"

Sorry if this is a bit confusing

ok found in the "Similar Topic" section the information i need
thanks to you all

If a DPS warrior doesn't want to give up ~3-6% of their DPS (see "Is Impale Overrated" for discussion) on single tank fights like Gruul, Tidewalker, Vashj, Solarian, Winterchill, Kaz'rogal, Archimonde, Naj'entus, and Gorefiend (9) in exchange for 20-30% more TPS (often resulting in higher raid DPS when the raid is on that OT's target) on multi-tank fights like High King, Mag, Hydross, Fathom Lord, Leo, Al'ar, VR, Kael, Anetheron, Azgalor, Supremus, Akama, Bloodboil, RoS, Sharaz, Council, and Illidan (17) then that's their decision.

Feral druids are probably better for the OT duties on all those multi-tank fights anyway (and cats can reach 1200-1600 DPS on single tank fights), and if you stack a raid with one prot war MT and multiple ferals (how our raid group often goes out), then you can often let a DPS warrior do damage full time in which case there would be no need for a hybrid warrior. If there's only one DPS warrior and they're the source of Blood Frenzy, they should probably stay full DPS as well. For raid groups not lucky enough to have a cadre of ferals, it's my suspicion that a hybrid fury/prot warrior can get the OT job done and contribute more DPS to single tank fights than a 2nd protection warrior using devastate.

As for tanking heroics with a warrior with 0 threat enhancing talents, there's not much to say. CC everything you can, get Blessing of Salvation on the rest of the party, and ask for a few seconds head start on each kill target. Besides that, I don't think the EJ community really needs guides to heroics this far into TBC. OT'ing raid trash as a 4th or 5th tank as full DPS is a question of putting on tank gear, and hitting a mob with revenge & sunder using HS as a rage dump, and SS/Cleave for multi target.

edit:
I've looked over those cells (added them to the spreadsheet myself, they include def stance, mob armor, dodge, block, parry, miss, and crit) and I notieced the bonus threat from shield bash was missing the def stance & defiance multipliers. With that error corrected, shield bash comes out to 392 422 threat in the sample gear including crit. It appears that shield bash would need a 29% crit rate to actually catch sunder in threat per global cooldown. (note: for my own sanity's sake I checked in-game to make sure AP didn't affect shield bash damage)

What would change that is if crits also multiplied bonus threat values, but they don't do so anywhere else in the original TPS spreadsheet, and my understanding has always been that bonus threat isn't multiplied by crits, just the damage component.

I agree that in combination with the daze mechanic and HS spam, the closer total threat value shield bash would likely edge out sunder and I'll add a note to that effect.

First, excellent post Quigon, thanks for putting the time into it.

I have a question about enchants. I see many warriors choose 120 armor to cloak over the 12agi or dodge enchants, which is understandable, and the enchant I myself run with. However, I was unaware of the 240 armor to glove enchant, and see many warriors running with 15 agi to gloves. Do you view 240 armor as the best glove enchant for mitigation? I feel it far excels both the 8stam and 15 agi choices, and am wondeirng if maybe Im not seeing something that others are, or possibly others were as in the dark about the glove reinforcement as I was.

Tested and confirmed. Thanks for pointing that out. (updating)

It's a perfectly good enchant. It's the best mitigation enchant for physical fights and represents at least a 1% increase in armor for most tier 6 protection warriors. From an "effective health" standpoint, it contributes roughly 30% more effective health over vitality and BoK adjusted 10 stamina at BT gear levels-with the added benefit of reducing healing requirements in a stable, predictable manner.

In terms of raw physical damage reduction, 240 armor will reduce more physical damage than the .55% dodge from 15 agi. The ~1.1% increase in armor is still roughly equivalent to the relative damage reduction from the incremental increase going from 50 > 50.55% non-block avoidance (where .55% avoidance actually ='s 1.1% incremental avoidance).

I presently use 2% threat on onslaught. Eventually, I'm considering 2% threat on enforcement, and switching to 240 armor on onslaught. Even though at higher avoidance levels Agi will give you a bigger relative damage reduction, I am having trouble coming to grips with the rage starvation from super high avoidance levels. I remember too many moments where the OT's forgot to apply TC/demo shout and I sat there at zero rage unable to shield block with pots on CD waiting for the RNG to give me a death sentence.

I feel 240 armor is a nice way to diversify away from the ridiculous avoidance levels of BT/MHJ gear.

Yea, this is basically the way I'm feeling. Im currently using 2 stam trinket over something like shadowmoon insignia because Im sitting at around 29% dodge before buffs etc and only staring more dodge upgrades in the face in the immediate future. I've had more times than I care to remember watching some 1200TPS warlock climbing towards my threat and me with an empty rage bar watching the dodge/parries roll off the top of my head.

Thanks for the quick reply and the number crunching, buying mats off the AH now.

To me at least, other than a situation where you're at the hp borderline of being able to survive something like Kael's pyro with whatever buffs you're willing to use/assume will get placed on you, in which case the 10 stam armor kit (added at the same time as 240 armor to gloves) is what you want, the current choice for gloves is between 240 armor and 2% threat, which unless you have 2 pairs of your best gloves, or enforcement + T6, is likely to come down to personal choice. I have yet to die in MH/BT before the attempt was already doomed, so I'm keeping 2% threat on my T5 for now. I'd guess many warriors don't want to re-enchant their gloves, or don't feel 240 armor is worth anything, thus you don't see 240 armor on gloves much.

Since this thread is "The Protection Warrior" and not "The Protection Warrior while tanking", I'd like to see a section discussing when they aren't main-tanking. eg. Put a weapon in your left hand, not a shield.

Gear Setup: identical to DW fury.
Rotation: HStrike rage burn, Devastate spam, WW when off cd.
Result: when done properly, around 75-80% of a purebred's DPS of identical gear.