◊ Quigon

Ren,
I don't get it. You don't have IDefStance, you aren't wearing Illidan's shield, not using Brutalizer or mallet, and you're making the claim that the T6 is superior because of avoidance? You're also giving up Illidan's helmet which is probably a huge item.
You're making avoidance sacrifices every step along the way.
200 haste rating proc and 100 block (27 rage ss) simply beats out the ~70 passive block rating from T6 4 piece on any first order approximation. And the loss in gear is not significant - the majority of losses between avoidance and aggro gear usually come from rings and trinkets.

Also, remember that expertise STACKS with hit.

Also why are people choosing mallet over brutalizer? Edit: N/M I see that you're Human.

According to the math Blade of Savagery should be higher TPS (not by much) than the Brutalizer, but for some reason I tend to do much more threat with the brutalizer - I'm not sure how I can explain that? (same enchants)

But yes a "tank" with a madness of betrayer and a dragonspine trophy is going to do good TPS in nearly any gear, I'm just surprised that a protection warrior was able to loot those items (hopefully from rot?).


What is important is to have a nice aggro set where one can retain aggro even in the worst case situations - those trinkets go a huge ways toward doing that - and with that, you wouldn't need the additional crutch of T5. However, that does not mean that the T5 bonuses are not also superb for threat, especially given most tank's situation with other gear. You go with what you got.

 

Tamral

Yup, I know. I put the math up before in the matrix state equations that show mathematically how expertise beats out just about anything. I think you might be right though, that I simply need a larger set of data points, which is obnoxiously long to get, since I usually only get between 150-200 per boss tanked. As for burst killing tanks, I find that to be the absolute truth. In fact, in most situations, burst is the ONLY thing that can kill the tank. But burst can be instant burst or generic burst. 8 or 9 consecutive hits against some bosses is as good as burst, especially the ones that can either silence the raid, fear the raid, or demand burst healing attention on secondary targets at times.

Expertise is tremendous at mitigating instant burst. If you don’t parry at all against a boss, it is damn near impossible for the boss to insta-gib you in any kind of way. The one area I do disagree with you is regarding threat generation. I think people vastly underestimate the value of hit and expertise in generating threat as well.

Being able to successfully connect the attack on a target 20% more often makes for an incredibly threaty build.

Consider the following:

1500 AP buffed
1000 Shield Block Value
15% crit
0 hit
6 expertise

VS

1100 AP buffed
400 Shield Block Value
11% crit
142 hit
27 expertise

Most people would be surprised to see the results. The latter build can sustain so much more TPS at peak, and even though in avoidance gear it may have less overall rage, HS doesn’t really add all that much.

 

• Xav

The T6 Shield Slam bonus damage only applies to the spellbook damage of Shield Slam I'm pretty sure, and doesn't mod off your block value. I haven't tested it, but was going to, then got sidetracked doing enchanting. I know equipping the set modifies the tooltip of shield slam though. If it does indeed only mod that and not the total damage, it's only a 38-40 damage gain before armor (counting defensive stance).

 

• Ren

I'm aware that 4pc T5 is better than 4pc T6 for threat generation (did I say otherwise?). I just prefer wearing the T6 with my threat set because I feel that going from T6 to T5 with all the dps gear I'm wearing is going a bit too far.

As for DST and Madness: I looted our guild's first DST while I was still a DPS warrior. I looted Madness as a PvP upgrade (with tanking benefit) because (1) it's not a PvE upgrade over the rogue Ashtongue trinket, (2) hunters present had Madness, (3) DPS warriors use DST/Solarian's Sapphire in PvE. Before I got Madness, I used the CE 16 hit rating and 34 AP helm enchant, which put me at 141 hit rating (8.98% hit, good enough w/o a DPS trinket right?).

And yes, I am human, so the +expertise on The Brutalizer is meaningless for me, which makes Blade of Savagery unquestionably superior for threat.

I do have Illidan's shield/helm (two in fact, one socketed for stam and one for avoidance), but they don't seem worth using on farm content (however hot the bulwark looks).

 

◊ Jameson

Seconded. [The Decapitator] is invaluable. It may never leave my bag. It should probably be included in the guide just to pull with: The FLK adds, any time you're short a MD on a pull, any pats, anything that needs to be LoSed quickly. It's the only Instant pull ability we have.

Note: 30 second cooldown, so equip it early.

 

Koshnek

I've just started reading through the threads and found this. I'm sorry if someone replied before me .

Although I have no statistics, mods, or threads to support the answer, I can attest to the fact that avoidance is great for multi-tanking. I run heroic SH with one sap and no marks. We have a great group that I usually lead that consists of my WoW best friend and guild leader (resto sham and rogue respectively), and then whatever other DPS wants to come. Usually it ends up being a hunter and some kind of non-CC like a druid or ret pally. DPS assists off of GL, GL attacks my primary target. You have so many things hitting you that there is no rage starvation from the avoidance gear, and the healer is able to keep you up much better because you're taking significantly less damage overall. I'm in salt and pepper T5/T4 and equivalent.

P.S. To answer the previous question about how people handle multi-tanking, I'm very fast on taunts, so I generally focus on primary target only and spam Imp. TC instead of one of my devastates. I have convenient bindings for mocking blow, and my challenging shout is located near my taunt button. Most of my bindings are done with my left hand. What isn't done by my left hand is done by mouse or by keypad because its very easy to quickly click a keypad number. Our DPS is typically too high for me to single-target a mob other than the primary target, and I usually can't afford to lose a second rotation slot either. Cleave works well too.

TBH there is no tanking of the number of mobs that occur in packs such as the ones before Solarian as a warrior. Either other classes help you out with snares and roots or a paladin does it.

That's what works for me at least.

Edit:
Can someone please explain to me exactly what this does? I am not very good with macros, and it seems the person who provided it didn't give it an adequate explanation (not meant to be offensive). I'll continue looking through the replies to see if someone else has already provided an answer to this question. If so, I'll edit this part out .

 

• Ren

It does exactly what it says it does. When you press the macro, it first dismounts you. Then it checks if you're in defensive stance, if so: it intervenes your target if it's in your party, intervenes your target's target if your target is unfriendly, intervenes your focus if you have a focus set. Then, it checks if you're in combat: if so, it checks if you're in berserker stance: if not, it changes you to berserker stance, if so, it intercepts. If you're not in combat, it uses charge.

To me though, it's a lot of complex code for very simple commands. Putting Charge, Intercept, and Intervene on their respective stance bars already replicates almost all the macro's functionality. All you lose is the ability to intervene your focus with one button. With 2.3 you automatically dismount when charging/intervening/intercepting and intervene your target's target if your target is unfriendly.

 

Sepulture

This shield Petrified Lichen Guard with a felsteel shield spike will generate more threat on multiple targets than any other shield in the game. It deals 240 nature damage over 12 seconds when stacked 5 times (to all attackers).

You will be down approximately 100 shield block value and 3000 armory compared to tier 6 shields, but if you can survive the damage, it may be a fantastic way to tank ghouls if your paladin is hit by a bus.

Is this shield really something you might use in MHJ? Well, probably not, but the item is so unique it might be worth mentioning if you add a multiple mob tanking section. It's certainly worth considering in heroics like the dreaded SH.

One of my favorite videos features this shield on a protection paladin: YouTube - Demon Hunter Supplicants AOE

 

Koshnek

Ah, cool. The macro's not something I want to use then, thanks for describing it to me. I understood the general idea of what it does but not how it does it.

I have another question :P. My guild is definitely in the "progression" phase, compounded by the fact that I am basically the sole raiding (MT) warrior in my guild. Therefore, is taking 3/3 Imp TC and 5/5 Imp Demo without a doubt the best course of action? Sometimes another warrior does raid, but with one exception, they're all PvP specced warriors who definitely don't have either talent.

I usually have a pretty good idea about what to do in tanking and speccing, but our raid makeup is always different than the norm, and hardly static. I try to be an all-in-one tank going with an oddball spec like 11/4(:-()/46 to compensate. So would it be better to drop points in Imp. HS and Sunder for 5/5 Imp Demo and to max out Cruelty? Or would it be better to drop 1HWS and one point in either Imp. HS or Sunder instead?

I want to benefit the raid as much as possible for my situation :-).

 

• Xav

I'd do a spec like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Or, have a warlock spec for Improved CoW if there's enough warlocks in raid that it wont really gimp you. I think feral druids also get an improved demo roar talent, assuming it's close enough?

Getting all of the support talents as a MT really hurts not only your TPS a lot but your survivability, so I'd try your best to work around having to get everything yourself if possible.

 

◊ Quigon

Ren, I agree with your premise - theres no reason to go all out on aggro gear when you have some really good options available - Its about balance sometimes.

Imp CoW is something worth mentioning at least once in this thread, but the reality is, who actually has it? And if so, how is that working for you?

 

◊ Quigon

I edited a few grammatical errors thanks to Cluey and a couple others - this weekend I'll toss in the DPS warrior guide.

Then the last major addition will be how to dps as a protection warrior - and It will be a more complete guide:
Perhaps "The Protection Warrior and Tanking Guide"

 

◊ Quigon

Could someone who knows how fix this macro for me please? I was told it does not work (I don't use macros really):

Interrupt (stopcasting to make sure slam never gets in the way)
#showtooltip [equipped:Shields,nostance:3]Shield Bash; Pummel
#showtooltip [equipped:shield,nostance:3]Shield Bash; Pummel
/stopcasting
/cast [nostance:3,noequipped:Shields] Berserker Stance; [nostance:3,equipped:Shields] Shield Bash; Pummel

 

Zaq

Re-Edit. That appears, after some copy-paste testing to work. The only possible problem I can see is that if you're in bers with a shield on, you pummel, instead of switching stances and bashing. Which may or may not be a problem. However, as you have it there, it's working fine as far as I can figure.

"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali

 

• Xav

I never really saw the point of using macros that alter their usage depending on your stance and stuff and involving a few lines of 'code'. Isn't it just as simple to uh, make your Shield Bash key turn into your Pummel key when you change stances? Back when everyone used default stuff and the bars auto-paged when you changed stances, stuff like that seemed basic. That's how I still use lots of my bar functionality, Charge turns into Intercept ... etc. Is this actually less common now?

Imp CoW is obviously pretty damn rare, but I just noted it there because he DID say he was the only warrior in the raid, not even any DPS warriors. So in a time of progress, they'd probably get a lot out of having offspecs pick up a couple of things to help out the MT, so he doesn't have to go to progress raids with, truthfully, a gimp spec.

Edit: This is small, but you refer to the offtanks for the flames in phase 2 illidan as specifically warriors; "The warriors on flames need to..." and so forth. Obviously it can be any of the tanking classes, and often, includes at least one of those. !

 

SoAnIs

Flexbar2+Remap on stance change. No macros needed. Most other bar mods also support remapping.
Some people just forget that it exists I guess.

 

◊ Quigon

I don't use macros but some people find them useful, hence the section - I want to reiterate this script though:


/console CameraDistanceMaxFactor 4

Try that one out, and zoom out. It really is amazing in some situations.

 

Dots

This is incorrect. It applies to the full Shield Slam damage.

 

Zindel

It's not that hard to cap hit in 4/5 T6. My threat set is 27 expertise and 130 hit rating (using hit food, so 150 hit rating which is above cap). I'll edit this post with the item links when I learn how to link them properly, but for you now you can click on my armory link to see my threat set.

I do have one +10 hit gem in the gun, but I feel 30 stam/10 hit is acceptable (I use the gorefiend gun for mitiagion anyway).

Kaz'rogal shield would still be an upgrade to that set. But currently the only shield I have is the Gruul shield because of bad drop rates on Illidan/Kaz shields.

 

• Xav

Yep you're right, decided to go test to be sure for myself! Here's the tiny bit of data it took, I could've done it in probably a total of 8 shield slams but decided to just sit there mashing buttons for a while longer:

 

Nethris

Haven't used it much personally, but yes, [The Decapitator] is VERY useful. If you happen to be a goblin engineer though... [Goblin Rocket Launcher] has over a 40 yard range, and has become by far my favorite way to pull some of the SSC packs when my hunters are lazy, I even pull with it in BT occasionally. The knockdown on it is gone long before any mobs get to me... using it in P1 of the Kael fight on Thaladred is also worth some amusement since I have it on for the stam anyway.

The rocket launcher isn't instant though, and can't be equipped/replaced mid fight, so the decapitator is still in my bags, and with Kara being a huge number of badges per run anyway I'd suggest running it occasionally to try to get one to any tanks that don't have it.

Edit:
#showtooltip [equipped:Shields,nostance:3]Shield Bash; Pummel
/stopcasting
/cast [nostance:3,noequipped:Shields] Berserker Stance; [nostance:3,equipped:Shields] Shield Bash; Pummel

works for me, with the "?" icon selected it even changes between the 2 ability icons. Not sure why that has 2 showtooltip lines, when I copy and pasted I just removed the one that didn't match the syntax of the cast line (which has "equipped:Shields", not "equipped:shield"). Any info on HOW it isn't working for someone? Would be very useful to have anyone who's having trouble copy and paste exactly what macro they have in game here, as the errors and lack thereof for macros in WoW seem utterly unhelpful the majority of the time.

 

Praemonitus

Imo. The 3/3 Imp TClap is worth it. The 5 into Imp Demo Shout isn't. (To the best of my knowledge shadow embrace [warlock talent] doesn't stack w/ demo shout any way.) However, the bottom line here is that you're raiding with warriors in progressive content that aren't spec'd PvE. Have them fix it or don't let them raid. One of the great things about having a warrior behind the boss is the debuffs he can stack specifically so you don't have to. You can concentrate more thoroughly on threat rotations and staying alive. TClap you can work in, though if he's pvp spec I would say he has it and can keep it up. It'll also keep him lower on the threat meters, because if he's really good and you're in progressive PvE content, he's probably walking up your back threatwise.

 

◊ zeidrich

I think the second line:

Is redundant and misspelled. Otherwise it looks fine to me.

I would change it as follows:

#showtooltip
/cast [nostance:3,noequipped:Shields] Berserker Stance; [nostance:3,equipped:Shields] Shield Bash; Pummel

This should show Berserker Stance on the icon when you have no shield equipped and are in the wrong stance to pummel. Show shield bash when you do have a shield equipped and are in the wrong stance to pummel, and will pummel if you are in berserker stance.

Otherwise you could use:

#showtooltip
/cast [stance:3] Pummel; [equipped:Shields] Shield Bash; Berserker Stance

Since it evaluates in order it will first look if you are in zerker stance and pummel, otherwise if you have a shield it will bash, otherwise it will switch to zerker.

I see no reason to put the stopcasting in the macro. It will only give you issues with GCD if it prematurely cancels something. The only skill that I can think of that has a cast time is slam. Slam triggers GCD anyways, and I might be mistaken but I think shield bash and pummel are both linked to GCD as well. So cancelling a slam will not allow you to pummel any faster. So you'll miss your slam, and keep getting "that ability is not ready yet" until GCD comes up anyways.

 

Thelyna

Er ... what? Shadow Embrace is 5% damage reduction. Demo shout is -300 AP (untalented, -420 AP talented). Apples and oranges. When we tested it back in the day, Shadow Embrace definitely *did* stack with -AP mods.

What you're probably confusing is Shadow Embrace (5% damage reduction) and Curse of Weakness (-350 AP, -420 talented). CoW and demo do not stack.

To Koshnek: I wouldn't bother with imp. demo shout - either get one of your pvp warriors to respec for particularly hard-hitters (Morogrim comes to mind), or get a warlock to do CoW (depends how many you have - CoE and CoS should probably be first priorities - you definitely don't want CoR up there without demo or CoW (or demo roar, if you're really stretching) though). Having to do your own demo is a pain in the ass as well as a threat loss.

DeeNogger: "No dot timer? Get your belt off, its spanking time."

 

Buiden

I read through most of the thread and didn't see any mention of parry as a threat stat. Anyone ever do the math to figure out how much TPS 1 parry rating should be? Unless I'm mistaken the same auto-attack swing reduction applies to players as well, right?