The Protection Guide - Page 20

stampy · 01/08/08, 11:51 AM

Sundered troll spirit (low armor) takes about 18% more melee damage than an unsundered lynx spirit (high armor). The lynx spirit has about 10% more health. No matter how snide you want to be about it, there isn't one "right answer," it depends on group composition.

There especially is no right answer when discussing ZA boss strategy in a thread about protection warrior mechanics. Take this trash somewhere else.

◊ Jameson · 01/08/08, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by stampy

Sundered troll spirit (low armor) takes about 18% more melee damage than an unsundered lynx spirit (high armor). The lynx spirit has about 10% more health. No matter how snide you want to be about it, there isn't one "right answer," it depends on group composition.

There especially is no right answer when discussing ZA boss strategy in a thread about protection warrior mechanics. Take this trash somewhere else.

I think you're misinterpreting me, which is easy in textual medium. I wasn't trying to be snide, rather, express exactly what you were saying. Not everyone has their epeens out ready to swing, relax. I was just trying to tell the guy that a lot of people kill the cat.

You're right though, this isn't the place.

Fellwraith · 01/08/08, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Examples of this? Parry as far as I know remains the more valuable avoidance mechanic due to the hastened swing. After all, it is far more expensive to accumulate. Dodge and parry have equal stake in physical avoidance as far as I know.

I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. If you have a choice between the two, you get more avoidance for incrementally adding 1 point of dodge rating than you do for 1 point of parry rating when they are at equal starting amounts on an item.

It really only matters with gem and trinket selection, since other items have a pre-determined set of stats. In a perfect world, you'd be able to distribute your avoidance stats between dodge and parry on each item to maximize the budget. Items like [Girdle of the Invulnerable] that distribute the points fairly efficiently for maximum avoidance (at that itemlevel budget) are few and far between. In the case of gems however, you have a set amount of rating you're going to get from that gem. You get more avoidance from a pure dodge gem than a pure parry gem, regardless of your pre-existing ratings.

It also takes almost 91 parry rating to get 1% effective haste (22.4 rating per 1% parry, 25% average attack speed increase per parry). If you really want to speed up your attack speed, it might make more sense to shoot for 4pc T5 or get a [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] than to gem for parry.

Xav · 01/08/08, 2:25 PM

I have another sweet example of how devastating boss parries are!

*Aggro*
05:15'00.125	Xavastrasz gains 1 Rage from Bloodrage
265		Thundyr's Gift of the Naaru dot heals Xavastrasz for 709
484		Teron Gorefiend's Melee dodged by Xavastrasz
640		Xavastrasz gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack
640		Xavastrasz's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 235
921		Xavastrasz's Melee crits Teron Gorefiend for 544
05:15'01.078	Xavastrasz gains 1 Rage from Bloodrage
281		Xavastrasz gains Windfury Attack
281		Xavastrasz gains Shield Block
05:15'01.312	Xavastrasz's Devastate crits Teron Gorefiend for 359
359		Metus's Multi-Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 771
734		Teron Gorefiend is afflicted by Sunder Armor
734		Teron Gorefiend's Melee hits Xavastrasz for 7612 (525 blocked)
937		Metus's Auto Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 1625
05:15'02.078	Teron Gorefiend is afflicted by Shadow Word: Pain
078		Teron Gorefiend is afflicted by Shadow Vulnerability
125		Sadarie's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 446 (54 blocked)
171		Metus's Arcane Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 709 Arcane damage
171		Sadarie's Demoralizing Shout resisted by Teron Gorefiend
515		Xavastrasz's Greater Blessing of Sanctuary hits Teron Gorefiend for 41 Holy damage
515		Xavastrasz's Reflect hits Teron Gorefiend for 42 Nature damage
515		Sadarie's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 567
515		Xavastrasz's Heroic Strike crits Teron Gorefiend for 712
906		Teron Gorefiend is afflicted by Misery
906		Teron Gorefiend is afflicted by Spell Vulnerability
937		Xavastrasz's Revenge hits Teron Gorefiend for 278
05:15'03.296	Teron Gorefiend is afflicted by Curse of Shadow
406		Dragenus's Melee crits Teron Gorefiend for 1306
453		Metus's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 777
734		Teron Gorefiend is afflicted by Curse of the Elements
843		Teron Gorefiend's Melee hits Xavastrasz for 6725 (780 blocked)
843		Dragenus's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 274
953		Scurvy's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 228
953		Skarrzog's Melee parried by Teron Gorefiend
05:15'04.109	Scurvy's Gore parried by Teron Gorefiend
109		Teron Gorefiend is afflicted by Demoralizing Shout
156		Teron Gorefiend's Greater Blessing of Sanctuary resisted by Xavastrasz
156		Xavastrasz's Heroic Strike hits Teron Gorefiend for 379
156		Xavastrasz's Shield Slam hits Teron Gorefiend for 805
250		Teron Gorefiend's Melee hits Xavastrasz for 10087 (crushing)
*Death*

That's just WWS' approximation of times.. the ingame duration between the attacks was rather small, logging within a second of each other, as they were on the same second mark for everyone's logs - WWS even shows .4 seconds between swings, nice! That's what happens when people attack Gorefiend as they run by and get into position. Chew through shieldblock, no avoidance, death!

• Mjollnir · 01/09/08, 12:38 AM

@Fellwraith:
I'm familiar with the cost of parry vs. dodge, and the difference between the 2 mechanics.
My question was in reference to proof that there are dodge-able attacks that are not parry-able. My understanding was a physical attack could be dodged just as well as parried.

Sepulture · 01/09/08, 3:26 AM

There are exactly three situations where a physical attack can be dodged but not parried.

1) When you have been disarmed.
2) When your weapon reaches zero durability.
3) When you forgot to equip a weapon.

There most certainly are physical attacks that cannot be dodged or parried, namely ranged attacks (which can be blocked, by the way) and physical spells like thunderclap. I'm not sure that this information is worth including though.

Borodin · 01/09/08, 5:40 AM

POST DELETED

Zindel · 01/09/08, 8:08 AM

I think it's worth mentioning the CE helmet enchant (34 attack power and +16 hit rating) as a viable helmet enchant for an aggressive warrior. Hit is a lot better than block value for threat until hit capped and the loss in mitigation isn't huge if we're comparing it to the ZG helmet enchant.

It doesn't affect a top end warrior's mitigation in any way either, because you'll be using T5/T6 helmet for threat with the hit rating enchant and the Illidan helmet for mitigation.

Xav, here's another one:

Wow Web Stats

05:47'29.000 Mother Shahraz's Melee hits Asik for 7776 (456 blocked)
060 Laoch's Lifebloom dot heals Asik for 645
290 Pheeb's Lifebloom dot heals Asik for 619
550 Asik gains 1 Rage from Shield Specialization
560 Asik's Reflect hits Mother Shahraz for 12 Nature damage
670 Asik's Melee parried by Mother Shahraz
901 Asik is afflicted by Silencing Shriek
971 Mother Shahraz's Saber Lash hits Asik for 7712 (456 blocked)
971 Erwyn's Flash of Light heals Asik for 1688
05:47'30.071 Mother Shahraz's Melee hits Asik for 8103 (456 blocked)
071 Laoch's Lifebloom dot heals Asik for 644
321 Asik's Reflect hits Mother Shahraz for 24 Nature damage
341 Asik's Devastate hits Mother Shahraz for 291
722 Asik dies

24503 damage in 1.071 seconds is fun.

Zindel · 01/09/08, 8:24 AM

Originally Posted by Sepulture

There are exactly three situations where a physical attack can be dodged but not parried.

1) When you have been disarmed.
2) When your weapon reaches zero durability.
3) When you forgot to equip a weapon.

So you're saying dodge is better than parry when:

1) You're clearing up to netherspite (only mobs in a raid zone that disarm)
2) You're fighting with a broken weapon
3) Your outfit breaks and dodge is better until you realize you can't devastate/revenge and fix it by equipping a weapon.

That's a very stupid way of justifying that dodge is better than parry. Incoming damage on the mobs that disarm is so low that your avoidance does not matter, and if you're fist fighting a mob then you got bigger problems to worry about than whether or not your dodge is enough.

Parry is slightly better because of the hasted effect you get when parrying, even then it's not enough to make up for the difference in the needed rating to gain 1% of each if you're considering socketing for avoidance.

Moogul · 01/09/08, 8:38 AM

Originally Posted by Zindel

So you're saying dodge is better than parry when:

1) You're clearing up to netherspite (only mobs in a raid zone that disarm)
2) You're fighting with a broken weapon
3) Your outfit breaks and dodge is better until you realize you can't devastate/revenge and fix it by equipping a weapon.

That's a very stupid way of justifying that dodge is better than parry. Incoming damage on the mobs that disarm is so low that your avoidance does not matter, and if you're fist fighting a mob then you got bigger problems to worry about than whether or not your dodge is enough.

Parry is slightly better because of the hasted effect you get when parrying, even then it's not enough to make up for the difference in the needed rating to gain 1% of each if you're considering socketing for avoidance.

(Emphasis mine)

You seem to have misinterpreted Sepulture's point - he was trying to say that dodge, percent for percent (NOT rating) is basically never better than parry, and he is actually on your side that 99% of the time, Parry is better. That's why the justification is 'stupid', because it's not meant to be a justification of dodge ;-)

Sepulture · 01/09/08, 3:58 PM

It was not my intention to take a side or justify something. My intention was to point out where you can dodge but not parry certain types of physical attacks in order to illustrate that the two mechanics have effectively the same range of application in terms of physical avoidance. Some earlier posters seemed to be confused and I was tired of reading about it.

As far as one being better than the other, it's limited to itemization and gemming (as fell said I believe). When gemming, dodge rating is superior to parry rating for avoidance. Hit rating, and crit above the hit cap are far superior to parry rating for threat. Agi is a better hybrid stat overall. The only exception is if you sport 2/5 tier 4.

One 8 agi gem yields this with kings yields:
17.6 armor
.267 crit
.267 dodge

Versus this for an 8 parry rating gem:
.36% parry
~.09% effective haste

This argument is rather silly, since no one will gem for parry, and itemizing specifically for parry for the sake of stacking parry would be counterproductive. The one exception might be a 2/5 tier 4 tank who saves badges for the parry gloves, or seeks out the trinket or parry weapon from ZA.

Parry generates so little effective haste, that you can safely call it a moderately gimped avoidance stat and not lose any sleep over it.

Edit: I was bored at work so I made a spreadsheet to see just how high you could get your parry unbuffed. Survey says 36.53%. I am pretty sure this is accurate. For some reason I had this silly concept of stacking parry gear with a really slow 2 hander.

Google Docs - parry boredom

◊ Quigon · 01/10/08, 2:30 AM

Obviously parry rating is weaker than dodge rating point for point, but the original question was more posed if you had 1% that you could add of either (two items equivalent except for this fact).

If you had 50 parry and 50 dodge, and had to choose between two items with 1% dodge or 1% parry, you'd choose the parry because of the damage reflect. Talking about not equipping weapons or broken items really has no tangible place in this discussion - disarm does however.
I assume that the reason for this is obvious (just in case: maybe I forgot to equip the item that gives me the extra dodge or parry in the first place? Maybe it broke? Maybe I accidentally deleted my shield... maybe Hillary won NH... these things are increasingly less likely to happen, I think).

Xav · 01/10/08, 2:39 AM

What does having more of one avoidance stat have to do with choosing to accumulate more of that? It's late and I'm certainly not thinking clearly, but I could only see that being an advantage if the combat table wasn't a 1-roll system, which it is. And well, everyone knows it is, even you.

So how's it any better to just make one number larger than the other?

Tigertooth · 01/10/08, 3:11 AM

Another tired post, but unless I’m mistaken the way an attack works is in an order (not 100% sure of this I’m sure it’s in the thread some were)

Lets say

Miss
Parry
Dodge
Block
Hit

If you have 50% parry and 50% dodge it still had 50% chance to hit as it goes down that list but if you have 90% dodge its only 10%.

As I said I’m rather sleepy and could be totally wrong, but that’s how I understand it from Quigon’s post

◊ Quigon · 01/10/08, 3:13 AM

No I was being stupid. Its in my own guide.
50% dodge 50% parry = 90% dodge 10% parry, it is additive. I edited the post; I honestly dont know why I wrote that.
Either way you're gonna have hella dodge usually over parry - and so theres no point to choose one over the other - especially as per item budget dodge is cheaper.

Esack · 01/10/08, 10:00 AM

I saw earlier in this topic, that there was a request for some macros and such keybindings. I used this set up from KZ into BT/Hyjal.

Lets get it started shall we?

First Macro

#show Revenge
/cast Revenge
/stopcasting
/cast Heroic Strike

This is your number 1 macro. I put this as my first keybending, makes it easy for me, cause im all dumb and stuff. This macro will hit revenge if its up, if not, it ques heroic strike. This is your secondary Threat / Rage dump macro for trash and anything not level 73+. Be wary of spamming this too much, or you will find yourself rage starved. Imp Heroic strike helps.

Second Macro

/castsequence reset=4/combat Shield Slam, Devastate, Devastate

This macro does just what it says. It hits shield slam, and then 2 devastates. With imp Sunder, the timer is damned near perfect. This button should be spammed non stop, go psycho with it. I want your finger to bleed when hitting it.

Third Macro

#show Shield Block
/cast Shield Block
/stopcasting
/cast Revenge
/stopcasting
/cast Heroic Strike

This is your #3 macro. You use this macro on level 73+ mobs (Your raid bosses). Its your alternate to your number 1 macro, it does all the same stuff, except it puts up your shield block as well.

When using these macro, if you are on trash or 5 man bosses, you just spam the buttons 1 and 2, if thats how your hotkeys are. When tanking a boss, just spam 2 and 3. Do this in conjunction with keeping your tclap, demo shout, and commanding shout up. Be wary of spamming the macro with HS at the end, in situations where you are rage starved. Missing a shield block, and getting yourself killed because you were too focused on that TPS will undoubtedly get you mocked :P

Also, the spec i use, which helps with this macro set up, is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.

Hope this helps abit.

• Slake · 01/10/08, 2:06 PM

Excellent guide Quigon. I just read through it and a minor nitpick I noticed: a few places you talk about Illidan's Shear, but you spell it "sheer", which is a verb or noun meaning "To swerve or deviate from a course."

tangent · 01/10/08, 2:37 PM

Those macros will work for most situations but can get you in trouble if you get an avoidance string and run low on rage.
Say you have 20 rage. You revenge/HS, you dodge, now you can't shield slam.
With the second macro if you shield slam, then can't devastate for a second or two, now your macro won't reset to shield slam till it has been available for a second or two. Reset=4 in my understanding will reset it 4 seconds after you've pressed it, not 4 seconds after it's started (someone correct me if I'm wrong here).

My solution to this problem is to use
/stopcasting
/cast [modifier:ctrl] Heroic Strike
In a macro after a tanking moves. If my rage is high enough I'll hold ctrl and add the heroic, if I'm low on rage I'll just use the normal ability.

I tried using
/cast [target:mouseover] Sunder Armor
For a while when I was running a lot of 5 mans. It was nice to be able to sunder targets without switching off my main target, and you can even sunder sheep. I never really worked it into my normal tanking but someone might find it useful.

-edit changed = to : thanks for the correction. That's what happens when I try to pull this stuff from memory.

Esack · 01/10/08, 7:19 PM

Thing is, it will only que HS if you press it while Revenge and Sblock are down. Its your choice to hit it or not, the macro just makes sure you dont miss your timing, as for the 4 second reset on the Slam macro, it breaks down like this.

Say you are tanking, and you only wanna hit 1 devastate, after your shield slam. You get Slam, GCD, Devastate, 4 seconds. Thats roughly 5 seconds, even, which is, as you know, is 1 sec less than the CD on Shield Slam. Or, say you wanna wait a second or 2 before hitting that first Devastate, then you get Slam, 2 seconds, Deva, 4 seconds, again, roughly 6 seconds, and with GCD's from other abilities going its not much of an issue.

And, if you are spamming it, the Macro resets as soon as you reach the last command, so it will be Slam, Dev, Dev, Slam, Dev, Dev, Ect.

Zaroua · 01/10/08, 7:40 PM

How much of an increase in TPS are [Drums of Battle]? Obviously this is only for HS spam and white attacks.

Also, I'm surprised that the original post doesn't include Leatherworking as a Warrior's professions. The Drums are very hard to beat since the only tangible "reward" from Blacksmithing are DPS weapons and [Red Havoc Boots]. Besides, Leatherworking does provide decent money if you know what to do with it.

seminarca · 01/10/08, 8:03 PM

Macros is something I struggled with constantly on my Prot Warrior alt. By and large, they worked "ok" but they really turn to shit when you start getting Rage starved from not enough contact with the mob (both keep missing each other) or in other exceptional situations. They don't provide the perfect level of control. So I found myself hitting skills manually a lot and eventually just gave up on macros entirely. I think an intuitive keybinding setup is far more useful and universal in application.

And instead of merely posting the keybinds I used, I'll mention briefly how I came up with it. Goal was just to put associated skills on button and Ctrl+button, e.g. I had Shield Block on Ctrl+4 and Revenge on 4 (one flows to the other, though not always necessarily). Other combos were, Shield Slam on Ctrl+2 and Heroic Strike on 2, Devastate on 3 and Sunder on Ctrl+3 (prior to the Devastate changes) Thunder Clap on 5 Demo Shout on Ctrl+5 (mitigation skills, similar duration). I have all Charge skills on 1 and Taunt on ` (to the left of 1). Using this setup, I developed an epic RSI inducing pattern of hand movements that generally resulted in pretty good threat and TClap/Demo uptime.

This setup also closely mirrors the keybinds I use on my Druid, so the motions flowed more naturally for me, albeit being more complex due to having lots more buttons to press.

flindar · 01/10/08, 8:46 PM

Can you all clarify this for me. You mentioned to spam heroic strike as a rage burnoff. But I am not sure if you meant to only spam heroic strike until my rage is burned down to an acceptable level or just work it into my threat cycle until it is burned off.

Also thank you for this detailed complete guide as it has helped me tremendously

Xav · 01/10/08, 9:09 PM

If you KNOW you're going to have mostly stable rage gain on the encounter, you can typically freely spam your Heroic Strike button. However, take note of avoidance streaks when your rage stops, immediately stop hitting the button and go back to a standard SS/Rev/Dev/Dev cycle.

If your rage typically isn't good, but then you suddenly end up with a near full rage bar, you can spam the button until you get down to 50ish and then return to a regular cycle, assuming the rage income stopped, again.

You basically never want to cause hitting your HS key to prevent you from doing SS/Rev/Dev/Dev on cooldown.

Olon97 · 01/10/08, 9:43 PM

Originally Posted by tangent

My solution to this problem is to use
/stopcasting
/cast [modifier=ctrl] Heroic Strike

I like this approach, thanks for mentioning it.

For the record, it should be "[modifier:ctrl]" - colon rather than the equal sign.

Xav · 01/11/08, 2:34 AM

I have some more weirdness to talk about and raise questions on, rather than making another post about how using heroic strike spammy macros, multiple ones, is bad...!

So, here we go:

Did an SSC run with some casuals, friends, so forth. Nothing too serious, Morogrim comes around, wearing threat gear cause there's a few people there with full T6 that will be pushing the limits, so I don't want to make them have to sit there and hold back too much. Anyway.

ImageShack - Hosting :: shieldblockru9.jpg

That's what my combat log showed. You'll notice I took a crush while Shield Block was up, and no, Tidal Wave or whatever didn't hit me, that combat log shows *all* effects on me, all heals, buff gains/fades, all damage. No Tidal Wave was in that period.

I was absolutely crit and crush immune with SBlock up, of course, by normal methods (23some dodge 21some parry, whatever block, 500+ def).

I looked at that log in confusion, he didn't even get any parries from anyone within 5 seconds of my death. Now that I just found that out from browsing the WWS, I'm really confused.

Loading... <- WWS link

?

04:14'18.296	Xavastrasz gains 1 Rage from Shield Specialization
296		Xavastrasz's Reflect hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 31 Nature damage
312		Xavastrasz's Heroic Strike hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 358
312		Delia's Healing Touch heals Xavastrasz for 6523
687		Morogrim Tidewalker's Melee hits Xavastrasz for 5173 (812 blocked)
04:14'19.125	Xavastrasz's Devastate crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 526
218		Morogrim Tidewalker's Melee hits Xavastrasz for 5084 (812 blocked)
500		Xavastrasz gains 1 Rage from Shield Specialization
500		Xavastrasz's Reflect hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 42 Nature damage
796		Delia's Lifebloom dot heals Xavastrasz for 680
968		Xavastrasz gains 1 Rage from Shield Specialization
968		Xavastrasz's Reflect hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 50 Nature damage
04:14'20.375	Xavastrasz's Heroic Strike hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 374
812		Morogrim Tidewalker's Melee hits Xavastrasz for 5551 (812 blocked)
843		Delia's Lifebloom dot heals Xavastrasz for 680
04:14'21.093	Xavastrasz gains Shield Block
500		Xavastrasz gains 1 Rage from Shield Specialization
500		Xavastrasz's Reflect hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 49 Nature damage
546		Xavastrasz's Devastate crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 525
812		Delia's Lifebloom dot heals Xavastrasz for 680
890		Morogrim Tidewalker's Melee hits Xavastrasz for 4134 (812 blocked)
890		Xavastrasz's Heroic Strike hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 385
04:14'22.296	Xavastrasz gains Lifebloom
390		Morogrim Tidewalker's Melee hits Xavastrasz for 7263 (crushing)
703		Xavastrasz gains 1 Rage from Shield Specialization
703		Xavastrasz's Reflect hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 38 Nature damage
04:14'23.140	Xavastrasz dies

WWS from someone else, so they were viewing actions after the server gets them, as opposed to it being from 'my' perspective.

So not only was I hit 5 times in under 4 seconds without parry functionality being a part of it, but I was crushed with shield block up too.