If you're progressing your max mitigation should be at a threat level well above the level of gear your DPS are bringing into play.
Second issue is few (if any?) bosses in the game have that DPS requirement for progression (anymore).
If you want a hybrid build go ahead and make one...
Edit:
About your build, it honestly makes no sense.
Take the points out of IMP HS and finish on 1HWS. As for 1 point in imp bloodrage and 4 in anticipation, I don't really know what to say... most tanks out there will stand behind their spec regardless of what you present.
I also don't understand how you have two backup warriors with imp IDS. That talent does not exactly behoove a DPS warrior to take - and having 3 prot warriors in a raid is absurd. Increasing your threat by 50 TPS (max) is worth giving up 2000+ DPS?
As for the S3 bp, yeah its great. But keep in mind the Bulwark was available basically from launch, ancient on the day 2.1 went. You have multiple mudflation and easy to grab items available 9 months later. Go with whatever you like.
My immediate reaction is that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to pick Cruelty over one-hand Specialisation unless this nets you IDS. OHS applies to every single point of damage you do with a one-hander equipped: Shield Slam, Thunder Clap, Darkmoon Card: Vengeance procs - everything. It's strictly better than Cruelty.
Other than that, there has been discussion of various mix'n'math talent approaches in the thread of late and I think consensus are that there are enough situationally viable choices between the two extremes that it's not worth discussing them all in detail.
Xerophyte, he didn't pick Cruelty above 1Hspec, he picked impHS, which is far worse in this situation. 1 point in imp blood rage is also strange, either go with 2 or leave it at 0. I think most warrior tanks try out 2/2 imp blood rage + 3/5 anticipation, I know I did and found it lacking, so I went back to 5/5 anticipation.
Quigon, you might have misunderstood his reference to IDS, he surely meant improved demoralizing shout, and not improved defensive stance, which is perfectly normal for socially aware DPS warriors to pick.
Over in the rogue thread the topic of Imp Expose Armor has come up recently. While I realize this can't be stacked with Sunder Armor and that Sunder Armor (via Devastate) is essential to a Prot. Warrior's TPS while tanking (and thus EA should never be used).. how does it factor into DPS? When a Prot warrior is put in a dps situation (either multiple prot warriors in the raid w/ a single-tank boss or a druid is tanking for some other reason), is devastate a primary dps ability?
Just to give a frame of reference, when using Imp EA, my personal DPS goes down by about ~15 dps (< 1%) instead of using Rupture. Yep, that extra 475 armor pen matters enough to cover nearly all of my rupture dps. Each of the other rogues, warriors, hunters, kitties, enhancement shaman, etc gain anywhere from 60 to 100 dps. Net raid increase is generally in the ~500 dps range, depending on how many melee the raid has. Now, what I hadn't considered was the dps loss for any prot warriors in the raid who were dps'ing.
So, how much of a dps loss would be expected for a prot warrior who is no longer able to use devastate?
I should probably check my linked build before i finish the post next time. I had already spec'd with 5/5 Anticipation instead of Imp Bloodrage.
I am moving 1pt out of Imp Heroic and into finishing off OHS. I just had a long chat on vent and myself and another of our warriors were totally misreading the tooltip on it. We saw it as increasing your 1H weapon damage only.
By IDS i meant Improved Demo Shout and yes they are both DPS warriors. Both seem happy to keep it up in order to get Curse of Recklessness.
Actually, the threat is only generated for the first 5 sunders. So what you could do is let the sunder stack go up, then overwrite it with Imp EA.
Edit: Apologies, somehow the added damage slipped my mind. Anyway, I guess I'd just look at the gear of your warrior, prot damage can vary from tank level to mid-high dpser.
And after overwriting the sunders with EA the damage of the tank's decastate drops to abyssal levels, making him loose TPS, while the melee's DPS goes up. Not a great idea.
But if the tank is a different class, (imp)EA seemes like a good idea to increase raid damage, prot warriors DPS loss (which is significant for them) would most likely be negligible comapred to the raid DPS increase.
@Chardonnay: Couldn't you macro all your abilities like so:
/cast Shield Block
/cast Heroic Strike (or Sunder Armor or Shield Slam or Devastate, etc.)
Since Shield Block does not cost a GCD, you should theoretically be able to use it to precede any ability.
I know, that was my original solution to the problem, but it's pretty suboptimal because:
1) I don't SB on trash, it's a waste of rage, so I have to change my action bars before/after bosses to swap SB macro in/out.
2) Also some bosses have phases when they don't hit you (Lurker during spout, VR when you lost aggro, Nightbane skellies) and you're stuck with the SB macros wasting your rage again.
Xerophyte, he didn't pick Cruelty above 1Hspec, he picked impHS, which is far worse in this situation. 1 point in imp blood rage is also strange, either go with 2 or leave it at 0. I think most warrior tanks try out 2/2 imp blood rage + 3/5 anticipation, I know I did and found it lacking, so I went back to 5/5 anticipation.
Quigon, you might have misunderstood his reference to IDS, he surely meant improved demoralizing shout, and not improved defensive stance, which is perfectly normal for socially aware DPS warriors to pick.
No I was definitely talking about improved demo shout. I don't think 2 offtanks in a raid need this. Especially DPS offtanks.
Is there even a reason to bring more than 1 dps warrior to the raid though? Thinking dps warrior spec I always think as if he'd be the only dps warrior in the raid, seeing it's often the case in a balanced raid. I mean obviously sometimes you can't get a rogue and the 2nd dps warrior is really good, but it is not optimal situation therefore dps warrior spec should, for most guilds at least, be based on the assumption he's the only warrior in the raid.
Yeah exactly glazohar. You could drop IDS from the OT, give it to the MT, and still keep CoR and survivability - lose maybe 30 TPS, and gain 1000-2000 DPS depending on how you shift things around, or talent specs. During progression especially I don't recommend the OT using IDS. You will simply be alone on a boss sometimes, this was especially true in 40 man raids (and say, Kael or Illidan).
Are you recommending dropping the threat from either sword spec or focused rage for having TC and 5/5 demo? Or am I missing something? I thought 2/5 imp demo only brought a boss *without* CoR to 0 AP but 5/5 was needed to make up for CoR (really should go over the abilities on wowhead sometimes ;p)? Because I don't see how you could have 3/3 imp TC and 5/5 demo without losing 3 points from either sword spec or focused rage.
If you're alone then you don't really need CoR anyway, do you? Or are there fights where you want CoR but the DPS warrior isn't there? Because if you only use CoR on what the dps warrior is attacking, then you should be fine with 2/5 imp demo for solo tanking and the DPS warrior will keep his imp demo when your target is being DPSed?
You keep saying tanks at any progression gear level should outthreat any dps but I just don't see it happening in reality. Either the tank is focused on the new fight, what's going on with the raid, focusing his shield block cooldown over his threat cooldowns etc, or the "how much tps a progressing tank has" is overestimated. In all of those cases, having full threat talents (except heroic strike if you want 2/5 demo) should help dps more than letting the dps warrior not spec 5/5 imp demo.
If you're alone then you don't really need CoR anyway, do you? Or are there fights where you want CoR but the DPS warrior isn't there?
I'm seriously wondering if you're arguing just for the sake of arguing.
1. The DPS warrior's DPS will go up by not having to take IDS - especially for a fury warrior.
2. It requires you to have the DPS warrior as a part of your raid setup when you may not want to use them - often times rogues are better than a DPS warrior for a given situation.
3. Your DPS frequently are not around - and a mob may be debuffed before the dps arrive. Asking the warlocks to watch debuffs as such is absurd.
If you want a list of bosses that the DPS warrior historically would not, or currently will not always be around to debuff on:
Lucifron, Magmadar, Gehennas, Baron Geddon, Shahraz, Golemagg, Majordomo, Ragnaros, Razorgore, Vaelastrasz, Firemaw, Chromaggus, Nefarian, Anub'Rhekan, Faerlina, Maexxna, Noth, Heigan (briefly, or especially if they die), Loatheb (sorta), Grobbulus, Razuvious, Gothik, 4H, Sapphiron, Lurker P2, Morogrim, FLK, Al'ar, Kael'thas, Supremus pickup, Akama adds, Teron, Illdari, Illidan (P2 especially).
Anyway, for his spec, I didn't specifically say he should get IDS and that will fix his spec - I said he should get 1HWS instead of imp heroic strike. I also made it clear that having TWO offtanks with IDS is stupid. If he wants more DPS, he can take IDS himself. If he wants more threat, he can have an OT do it, but then why would he have such a silly hybrid spec?
You keep saying tanks at any progression gear level should outthreat any dps but I just don't see it happening in reality. Either the tank is focused on the new fight, what's going on with the raid, focusing his shield block cooldown over his threat cooldowns etc, or the "how much tps a progressing tank has" is overestimated. In all of those cases, having full threat talents (except heroic strike if you want 2/5 demo) should help dps more than letting the dps warrior not spec 5/5 imp demo.
I honestly don't understand this. The point of a progression tank isn't to help your DPS. When progressing through T5 and T6 I still had many blues on, zero expertise, and a full mitigation build, and I can't say once aggro was ever a concern, because the people around me had equally craptastic gear. Even if they didn't there isn't a single DPS race fight in TBC - you can beat all of these fights with 8 to 10 healers, and heal it with 6-7 if you had to. There is PLENTY of room for margin since the 2.1 nerfs, and even before that a threat spec was totally unnecessary.
This is reality - this has always been reality. If you are losing aggro as a tank with expertise, to people without warglaives, you're basically doing something wrong.
Your aggro is higher simply due to your crappy gear, and higher incoming damage and rage. You don't need IHS when your avoidance is 1/3rd of what it ultimately will become.
A tank who cannot keep slamming his buttons because of a lack of focus is another issue entirely. That is simply someone who isn't good at WoW. If you want to handicap their aggro, go for it - but at the cost of survivability? You wipe far more often in progression from learning, than from lack of DPS. It is extremely rare that you wipe with everyone up, no deaths, everything executed perfectly, and a berserk timer - vs having people die due to too much attention on the MT, or mana spent, or lack of control and focus. Taking less damage as a MT is your top priority during progression.
What happens if your guild's strategy is to kill sanguinar first in phase 3, and you're tanking it as the MT. The OT(s) are on weapons or engineer? CoR is worth it in this case, and you're certainly not going to lose aggro on sanguinar, even with IDS and no IHS.
Anyway, the first time I took IHS in 3+ years was long after we killed Illidan, during this endless farm mode. And it has largely proven to be totally unnecessary, even in improving practical DPS, based on TPS caps - outside of maybe a couple trash pulls total.
Progression is about learning and survival, not DPS and threat. If threat is holding you back to progression, you need a new tank. I've seen this affect some guilds in the past - and its the player... you cannot spec out of bad, or stupid.
I'm seriously wondering if you're arguing just for the sake of arguing.
1. The DPS warrior's DPS will go up by not having to take IDS - especially for a fury warrior.
2. It requires you to have the DPS warrior as a part of your raid setup when you may not want to use them - often times rogues are better than a DPS warrior for a given situation.
3. Your DPS frequently are not around - and a mob may be debuffed before the dps arrive. Asking the warlocks to watch debuffs as such is absurd.
Actually it's a good point.
1. UW is marginal at best.
2. The last time you didn't want a DPS warrior in the melee group for Battle Shout was... Leotheras 1.0 because melees got really screwed there?
3. There is no reason to apply CoR too early and Demoralizing Shout is a 30 second debuff. I'm sure any halfway decent player can handle this.
All in all I think IDS on a DPS warrior is a good solution. But it varies for each guild of course. If you don't have a reliable DPS warrior, this obviously won't work.
You can counter argue nearly any point.
The bottom line is you'll need a DPS warrior if your MT doesn't have IDS, and it is a hard hitting boss where you want CoR up.
Further, you're not always going to have the luxury of the OT being there to debuff for you - sometimes they'll be tanking, sometimes they'll be dead, or out.
As for when you have a DPS warrior around - well, on some fights we don't want more than 1 other DPS warrior. Unless all of the DPS warriors have IDS, we would be forced to take the one who does have it or suffer either a sizeable DPS or mitigation hit. For instance, in Hyjal our guild takes 1 DPS warrior typically max per fight. We rotate that spot around depending on who else shows up. Your guild and mileage may vary.
Lastly, I think
3. There is no reason to apply CoR too early and Demoralizing Shout is a 30 second debuff. I'm sure any halfway decent player can handle this.
I think this is fairly inaccurate. It is not about the first Demo necessarily - it is about demo dropping. And demo DOES drop... and it is noticeable. Warlocks are likely not going to drop CoR if OT's get chain punted on archimonde, or drop the debuff in the moments before the OT gets there to land the demo.
If demo drops, it is typically not on the warlock to drop CoR - it is on the apparently predisposed warrior to get it back up.
If your goal is to be in farm mode, high aggro, etc - by all means have the OT take IDS. We do it ourselves. And I could argue endlessly why we do this - but that doesn't mean its the best way to go during progression mode at the same time. Plus he wanted comments on his spec - I think clearly its a strange spec, almost random clicking in some places.
I think the choice is:
1. Gain a little aggro for the MT, Lose a little DPS for a DPS warrior, require a DPS warrior to successfully debuff at least once every thirty seconds from the start on the MT target or suffer mitigation or dps losses.
2. Lose a little aggro for the MT, Gain a little DPS for the DPS warrior, no requirement or dependency on another warrior to debuff or be at the appropriate location.
The bottom line is you don't take IDS in order to improve your threat. The question should be is threat that much of an issue - or rather: is survivability more of an issue, or threat? Have you ever answered threat while still learning a fight (post 2.1?) If so, I think talents may be a crutch to a bigger problem - but in this case, by all means, go ahead and do it. But IDS is a big deal, and shouldn't be hand-waved.
Someone should have it either way, and as Dot's said, probably someone reliable at the very least.
Just would like to thankyou for this incredibly helpful post. The concise breakdown of numerical mechanics has really exacted the science of tanking to a more manageable level. The time spent writing this out is greatly appreciated =)
It's not arguing for the sake of arguing, it is for the sake of figuring out what would, in fact, be the easiest way to progress through this game.
I see you take 2/2 taunt instead of 1HWS. Is it really worth it? While on heroics playing my mage I would love it if the warrior would have it. But how often do you really taunt on-cooldown? And is it realyl worth the 4% less damage from what could've been 1HWS?
Also people that progress today are probably not what you had when you were progressing. Today people have access to a large amount of epics without even stepping foot in 25-mans (look at my armor for example, and compare that to what you could've had if you were trying to progress through ssc/tk when you did or even just pre-2.3). That may have something to do with people getting threat capped, but I still need to go over WWSs etc to see if the tanks are really putting out the threat they should be.
In Mount Hyjal? Always. On BT trash? More than you'd think.
It's part of how I tank multiple mobs at once. I don't build much threat aside from thunderclaps on one mob and let people pull it off me. I taunt, that uses taunt mechanics to make their threat generation save me cooldowns and rage. This guarantees I have 2-3 mobs stuck to me like glue and I'm tanking as many mobs as I can (because I was shieldslamming them, using revenge, etc. instead of using cleave and thunderclap alone).
I'd agree with Dots, the value of imp demo or any talent selection will vary a bit by guild. In our case, we'll probably always have a melee dps group with an enhancement shaman and a dps warrior with solarian's sapphire until we kill Illidan. With imp zerker stance the threat difference between a warrior and a rogue is basically having a vanish vs not having a vanish. Imp battleshout and solarians gem are a bigger overall raid dps boost for us right now than a fourth rogue. That warrior will always handle imp demo shout. If he dies, we drop curse of recklessness and I provide my own demo shout. Having him use it instead of me lets us change up our group comp for max mitigation, rather than putting a shaman in my group. UW is helpful for a fury warrior's dps, but not 1k dps. Expertise gear certainly helps, but being able to save rage and global cooldowns is a much bigger deal for me - especially if I'm rage starved.
Given the logic the MT should have both Imp TC and Imp Demo (which I agree with), the decision seems to be between 5/5 1HW and 3/3 Imp Defensive. Overall 5/5 Imp Demo will lower incoming damage far more than Imp Defensive stance, right?
For farming content, you can tank everything in the game without demo shout (let alone imp demo) and still use CoR. So what you spec for farming BT/Hyjal after your tank is sporting a full tier6 suit is mostly a matter of personal preference. (I mean, honestly, folk are rationaly debating the merits of taking crushings on Teron in order to sustain reasonable threat output - when overgeared of course).
For progression content, the most reliable approach is for the MT to spec imp demo and imp TC. You can get a little better optimization if your dps warrior or offtank is guaranteed to be there and specs one or both of these for you.
Isn't improved defensive stance kind of a staple talent? I've always been labling warriors (that don't have the whole game on farm) as "bad" if they decided to skip this talent. Lots of fights have a lot of magic damage, and improved defensive stance reduces a lot of it.
And no there isn't much too it, I'm still not sure though if it would really be easier to progress with the dps warrior having imp demo and the mt having 2/5 in it and not using CoR when the dps warrior can't put it up, or dropping threat from the MT and having him always put up that 5/5 demo and never dropping CoR.
I'd think improved defensive stance is very useful to guilds working on content. That 6% is nothing to be scoffed at really, like say RoS, Kael'thas, and Shahraz?
I'd think improved defensive stance is very useful to guilds working on content. That 6% is nothing to be scoffed at really, like say RoS, Kael'thas, and Shahraz?
It's the most important talent on kael, it really cuts the amount of stamina needed for soaking the pyro, 1,2k smaller or so. Should be in every kael-tanks spec, especially when attempting first kills.
Improved Defensive Stance is only significant at Kael. Maybe offtanking Illidan adds. In all other occasions, the average magical attacks are infrequent and range in the 2-3 k area (meaning about 150 or so less damage taken. In all other SSC/TK fights it's mostly irrelevant, due to the frequency with which you gain advantage from it.
Even for the later fights in BT/Hyjal, there is practically no use for it. A port on the tanks at Mother is rare at best, and the extra damage taken from it is pretty low if people react properly. If they don't, then the chance that the talent will make the difference between a wipe and a kill, is very small as people standing still will kill off the other melee anyway.
At Council it may make the biggest difference, but this fight should be so trivial that the potential one wipe you may or may not suffer won't mean anything. Same with Azgalor and his rain of fire.
If there were more mobs in game where elemental damage was a significant part of their damage spikes, it might be worthwhile to take, but at the moment that is for sure not the case. None of the current content is really so gear dependant, and the requirements of gear on the tanks are much easier to acquire then at say Emperors or Patchwerk.
This may change in Sunwell of course but at the moment I don't really see any reason to spec into it except for the first Kael kills.
Not really sure about Improved Demo Shout. The damage loss a fury warrior takes from getting this talent instead of the alternative is not so high I think, definitely not hundreds of dps. Of the list that was posted, only a handful of creatures inflict dangerous dps on the tank, and of those even fewer do damage so dangerously high that the difference between having a normal or improved demo shout on for a few seconds is going to make or break the encounter.
Should probably go with 5/5 anticipation (unless you are like me and too lazy to respec), the 6 (or 3) rage per minute from Bloodrage spec won't help you much if you really have rage issues.
Even for the later fights in BT/Hyjal, there is practically no use for it. A port on the tanks at Mother is rare at best, and the extra damage taken from it is pretty low if people react properly. If they don't, then the chance that the talent will make the difference between a wipe and a kill, is very small as people standing still will kill off the other melee anyway
I can think of cases where it clearly did save me (or nearly at the very least as I dipped under 300 hp) at Archimonde while learning the fight (since during learning doomfires turning into the tank was a problem we had for awhile.)
Now I'm not claiming it's an incredible talent, but I certainly think it's a higher priority talent than say Improved Shield Wall when still learning content.
01/13/08, 2:44 AM
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