The Protection Guide - Page 24

Mode · 01/19/08, 4:39 PM

Looking over the Tier 4 warrior tank set, I just feel kind of...blah. If I ever win a token, I'm inclined to go blow it on the plate DPS set. Can anyone present a strong argument in favor of using any of the tier pieces for any reason even if we take badge rewards and ZA rewards past the first two bosses out of the picture?

Xav · 01/19/08, 7:12 PM

The T4 shoulders are nice, better than Netherspite's. The BP is also better than Panzar'thar, but not by much. The helm, however, is very very good, better than any alternatives around that level (it's arguably better than T5 helm, too). The legs and gloves are weak, though, and you can certainly skip those.

◊ Quigon · 01/19/08, 9:34 PM

I personally enjoyed 2 piece tier 4 for quite a while - as I'm sure most of the readers of this thread did. However, times have changed. It all matters on what your path of least resistance is.

Prinsesa · 01/20/08, 12:39 AM

Actually, the threat is only generated for the first 5 sunders. So what you could do is let the sunder stack go up, then overwrite it with Imp EA.

I think it was established in Kenco's Guide to Threat that you produce the same amount of threat regardless of whether a debuff is not applied, partially stacked or fully stacked.

Liar · 01/20/08, 4:45 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

I think it was established in Kenco's Guide to Threat that you produce the same amount of threat regardless of whether a debuff is not applied, partially stacked or fully stacked.

That is if you use Sunder Armor but AFAIK Devastate works differently in that it does indeed only stack Sunder 5 times. After that you only cause threat from the actual Devastate.

nlz242 · 01/21/08, 11:27 AM

Miss: 9.0%
Dodge: 5.6% (unknown, a best guess)
Parry: 10.6% (unknown, a best guess)
Glancing Blow: 25% (default glancing blow rate against a boss with white damage)

So my stats should look like
Miss: 4.69 (9 - 4.31)
Dodge: About 1.6% (5.6 - 4)
Parry: About 6.6% (10.6 - 4)

However, if you look at the WWS logs provided (below)
My parry is pretty much always around 10%
My dodge is around what it should be.
So is miss.

And reading the tooltip of expertise it says Dodge -or- Parry, not Dodge -and- Parry.
So, what im thinking is that you need to push off Dodges to touch parries.
What are you all thinking? Am i way deep into stupidity and missing something obvious?

Void Reaver
Gruul

The World of Warcraft Armory

◊ Quigon · 01/21/08, 3:32 PM

Parry is around 15 or 16 base I believe.
And expertise pushes both simultaneously.

Sepulture · 01/21/08, 3:34 PM

No, you do not have to push off dodge to affect parry. Dodge and parry are both affected by expertise at the same time.

This can be proven very quickly by looking at the effect of expertise on trash mobs, which apparently do not have a higher parry rate. It can also be proven by examining dodge/parry rates on bosses over numerous attempts with and without expertise gear equipped.

Edit: Delete this post if you would like, it's redundant.

nlz242 · 01/21/08, 3:42 PM

Thanks Quigon, good info. You may want to update the OP to specify that it is suspected to be around 15-16 instead of 10?

I understand it is there as a best guess tho, so yeah my bad for asking redundant stuff

Thanks

Twid · 01/21/08, 7:33 PM

Quigon, you listed the estimated TPS values for 1 point of Block Value, 1 point of hit rating. Would you be able to add the estimated TPS value per point of expertise rating?

It would have to be two different values, as the benefit of expertise is halved once the dodge cap is reached. Also, for completeness, the TPS value for 1 point of crit rating has some value as well.

Liar · 01/21/08, 9:04 PM

Expertise is basically just another form of +hit in terms of TPS. Assuming you are not hit or expertise capped, it doesn't matter if you get 0.5% less change to be dodged and parried or 1% hit, you will still hit your abilities 1% more often so I think you can assume both stats equal in TPS.

Going by the OP, 1% hit was stated as adding roughly 11 TPS.
2 Expertise (0.5% less dodge and 0.5% less parry) should logically also be worth 11 TPS.
If your expertise starts to nullify a boss mobs dodge chance completely at -5.75% (23 expertise), then adding more expertise after that point is only worth half of the TPS obviously.

That being said, expertise and hit may be equitable if you only want to measure TPS but it doesn't change the fact that expertise of the same value (i.e. 2 expertise vs 1% hit) is better than hit since it functions as a mitigation stat as well unlike hit which is purely a threat stat.

◊ Quigon · 01/21/08, 9:30 PM

I misread initially - looks like what you wrote is accurate.

Hit and expertise stack, but in terms of item budget I'm fairly sure hit comes in cheaper - that being said, expertise is still superior as it reduces burst, stacks with hit, etc etc...
We really only have 5 expertise items anyway, not much to play around with there.
Neck
Bracer
Gloves
Weapon (Humans might want to use Shahraz's sword over the mallet for raw TPS).
Ring

Stavros · 01/21/08, 9:36 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

That is if you use Sunder Armor but AFAIK Devastate works differently in that it does indeed only stack Sunder 5 times. After that you only cause threat from the actual Devastate.

I wasn't aware of this, do you have any links or references to this? I have been tanking with Devestate for a while and never used sunder since getting it.

Liar · 01/21/08, 9:56 PM

Originally Posted by Quigon

Hit and expertise stack, but in terms of item budget I'm fairly sure hit comes in cheaper - that being said, expertise is still superior as it reduces burst, stacks with hit, etc etc...

I agree with the other aspects that make expertise better than hit but if I am not mixing up anything, 1 rating of expertise has the same item value as 1 rating of hit (same for 1 crit rating, 1 agility, 1 str, you get the point). I am not sure of the exact conversion rations but roughly 4 expertise rating is 1 expertise and 2 expertise equals 1% hit which in turn is 16.7 hit rating.
So doesn't that make expertise rating twice as cheap as hit rating even? I guess that is balanced by the fact that tanks are virtually the only ones getting a use out of the -parry portion anyways so it is fairly balanced overall.

Originally Posted by Stavros

I wasn't aware of this, do you have any links or references to this? I have been tanking with Devestate for a while and never used sunder since getting it.

The thread I got that from was about the new Devastate. Unfortunately it looks like the thread got moved into the archive which is currently bugged/not accessable by non-benefactors so I can't help you here.

◊ Quigon · 01/21/08, 10:23 PM

The way I recall it:
Devastate always does the devastate aggro from before. But since 2.4? it also applies the sunder debuff aggro while applying the first 5 sunders. So you get a nice big burst of efficient aggro in debuffing.

Borodin · 01/22/08, 5:41 AM

Expertise is precisely twice as effective as +Hit in terms of Threat (15.76 Hit Rating = 1% more blows landed, 15.76 Exertise Rating = 2% more blows landed due to not being Dodged/Parried).
Of course once you reach the Dodge cap (which comes in sooner than the Hit Cap) additional Expertise is worth the same threat as +Hit.

And of course Expertise also has the benefit of offsetting some enemy DPS from Parry-Hasting.
+Hit's effect on Taunt / Challenging Shout is also worth noting for the few Bosses you can Taunt and for trash groups.

Borodin · 01/22/08, 5:51 AM

Originally Posted by Quigon

The way I recall it:
Devastate always does the devastate aggro from before. But since 2.4? it also applies the sunder debuff aggro while applying the first 5 sunders. So you get a nice big burst of efficient aggro in debuffing.

Almost, Devastate's inherant threat was boosted and increases with the number of Sunder Armour's applied:

Devastate's inherant Threat has been calculated to be 105 + (15 x Sunder Armour count), with +301 Sunder Threat applicable to the first 5 applications only.

And of course on top of this you get the threat from the ever-increasing damage.

So:
1st: Damage + 120 +301
2nd: Damage + 135 +301
3rd: Damage + 150 +301
4th: Damage + 165 +301
5th: Damage + 180 +301
>5: Damage + 180

The full analysis and testing is over at TankSpot.com

galzohar · 01/22/08, 9:59 AM

Yeah that's what I remembered, devastate requires sunder armor stacked to do its full threat. Of course with the patch it also applies sunder anyway but I suppose if u cannot apply the sunder and sunder is not up you lose a lot of threat.

Ashlan · 01/22/08, 11:58 AM

Great thread! One thing is still missing - some solid testing of the new taunt mechanics and how much +hit is really needed?

Borodin · 01/22/08, 12:20 PM

It's pretty clear Taunt still functions as a spell and thus has a base 17% "miss" chance vs L73 Bosses.
As a result you would need over 252 Hit Rating to cap this at 1% resist.

That's borne out by the "Working Theorycraft" thread at the head of the forums - somone did indeed test it and came up with a rating close to 252 - here's a link to a test:

http://elitistjerks.com/585775-post66.html

Riot · 01/22/08, 1:01 PM

Regarding four piece Destroyer Armor -

Do many of you feel that it's worth it to continue wearing this set for the Battle Rush buff even deep into T6, and even in farm mode?

I'm just curious as to whether or not to go after some more T5 - I'd really like to try it out myself, but if it's something that's going to banked shortly after entering BT, I'd rather let others get bigger upgrades, of course.

Reliknom · 01/22/08, 4:37 PM

4pc T5 is definitely worth getting and is the base of the all-agro gear for warrior tanks, as you can see at the start of this thread. According to my experience though, with the new expertise items you can maintain high enough TPS to make 4pc T5 unnecessary even in farm content. Dual warglaive fury warriors might get close to you, but thanks to random loot tables I cannot comment on this issue...

Xav · 01/22/08, 4:52 PM

Nah, with a proper expertise and hit set noone will touch you in threat. You don't want to wear that gear on every fight, but usually there's other mechanics in place to make people not do as much damage, exception being like Archimonde + melee, especially warriors. Just tell them to cool off.

Destroyer was certainly amazing for threat prior to expertise, since the set had hit on it, great set bonuses, and was itemized well stat-wise, but now you can safely upgrade to T6-equiv items and not worry about threat.

◊ Quigon · 01/22/08, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Yeah that's what I remembered, devastate requires sunder armor stacked to do its full threat. Of course with the patch it also applies sunder anyway but I suppose if u cannot apply the sunder and sunder is not up you lose a lot of threat.

Yes, this is how it has always worked - this is what I meant by devastate behaves as before (plus blah).

The tweaking of the values isn't a mechanic change in 2.3 (devastate has been "tweaked" numerically many times).

What IS a mechanic change is that deva applies sunder, and that the sunder now counts as additional aggro for the first 5 debuffs.

As for

but I suppose if u cannot apply the sunder and sunder is not up you lose a lot of threat.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but the first 5 devastates, before fully sundered are worth MORE threat than the max sunder devastates. The devastate component of the hit may be less, but overall you get way more aggro during those first 5 hits.

◊ Quigon · 01/22/08, 10:22 PM

This is the working theory, based on tested evidence:

Taunt behaves as a spell, but increased in effectiveness through hit gear. This means it cannot be dodged, parried, or blocked. Immune and resisted are still OK.

Taunt is a 17% base resist rate (as with Naxx and prior).
Taunt will always resist 1% of the time regardless of your hit gear (16% max reduction).